“Police officers and firefighters are more likely to die by suicide than in the Line of Duty.”
Danny Warner from Chateau Recovery joins us today to talk about addiction recovery, avoiding archaic practices, and making a lasting difference. They use evidence based practices in their work with first responders like and are one of only a few providers recommended by the Fraternal Order of Police. He talks about the importance of keeping up with current technologies like neurofeedback and getting a support network involved. Mental wellness and trauma support are key for law enforcement officers, paramedics, EMT’s, firefighters, and current and former members of the military. Enjoy.
Chateaurecovery.com
The Illuminate Recovery Podcast is about Mental Health, Mental Illness, and Addiction Recovery. Shining light on ways to cope, manage, and inspire. Beyond the self care we discuss, you may need the help of a licensed professional. Curt Neider and Shelley Mangum are a part of Illuminate Billing Advocates. They are committed to helping better the industry and adding value to the lives of listeners by sharing tools, insights, and success stories of those who are working on their mental health.
Transcript (no grammar):
police officers and firefighters are more likely to die by suicide than in the line of duty danny warner from chateau recovery joins us today to talk about addiction recovery avoiding archaic practices and making a lasting difference they use evidence-based practices in their work with first responders and are one of only a few providers recommended by the fraternal order of police he talks about the importance of keeping up with current technologies like neurofeedback and getting a support network involved mental wellness and trauma support are key for law enforcement officers paramedics emts firefighters and current and former members of the military enjoy welcome to the illuminate recovery podcast we shed light on mental health issues mental illness and addiction recovery ways to cope manage and inspire beyond self-care we will discuss you may need the help of a licensed professional my name is kurt neider i'm a husband father entrepreneur a handyman and a student of life i avoid conflict i deflect with humor and i'm fascinated by the human experience and i'm shelley mangum i am a clinical mental health counselor and my favorite role of all times is grandma i am a seeker of truth and i feel like life should be approached with tremendous curiosity i ask the dumb questions i fill in the gaps all right we are super excited today to have danny warner he is the owner and ceo of chateau recovery it is a substance abuse recovery facility um in utah and danny's been in this industry a long time um danny thanks for coming appreciate it oh it's my pleasure um maybe start just take a take a minute and talk about how you ended up in the substance abuse industry because that's it's a little bit of a unique industry so talk about that a little bit sure well uh a long time ago i had worked in the wilderness uh world when wilderness was first started out one of the very first companies a company called anasazi which took trouble teens out into the woods and taught him how to survive off the land and that was by far one of my favorite and most rewarding jobs where i gotta get outside of myself and just be able to help people from there i kind of took a hard right and went into the business world where i was really focused on you know this widget or that widget and uh worked in a bunch of different corporate environments and had done that for quite a while and then found myself working in an environment where i got kind of caught up i was running a company and i had a couple different ceos and they started fighting and i was kind of the middle of it and after a year i thought what the heck am i doing with my life and quit my job went and traveled um africa for about a year worked with a bunch of animals and uh came back and said what do i want to do and i had a couple of requirements one was i needed to be able to work for myself and the other one was i needed to be able to work with people and i needed to be able to feel good about what i was doing each day when you go home and you you know the majority of your day is spent working i wanted to feel like i was doing something of value and not just you know either making some corporation wit rich or uh kind of creating another widget so after spending a lot of time doing some soul searching and looking at different industries i landed on this i came back in and started chateau recovery about uh eight and a half years ago and we started it just kind of a pretty generalized uh approach uh treating adults dealing with substance abuse and then over the course of this eight and a half years as we got into it uh we we looked around and tried to understand how people have been doing it uh what was kind of the standard recognized really quickly there's not a standard uh there's no kind of best practices but everyone had been doing it kind of the same way for a long time you know at the core almost 90 percent of programs were a 12-step program there was kind of some some sacred cows around that and and felt like there was a lot of new evidence and um that really wasn't being paid attention to and so we got in and said hey we're gonna make sure we're gonna have no sacred cows we're gonna look at uh some different industries trying to bring some best practices in from both the adolescent world and also the mental health world into the substance world and really try to bring kind of what the the new evidence-based practices are telling us and created a program kind of from scratch i was able to find a clinical director who shared the same values and same philosophy as me and we've been working to build a program since then so and and i know somewhat of your program i know some of your therapists and they are some of the best of the best um and it would be fair to say that uh that your clinical director ben has definitely put a lot of work into that clinical program and and the efforts that he puts there um talk about how chateau's transformed over the years because it sounds like as we've talked that your focus is shifting a little bit sure uh i think we've transformed in a couple ways um the first way is um you know as we got into this and there was kind of this idea of you you troll treat adults in addiction and when you looked at the adolescent world the adolescent world is much better at creating programs that really identify who they treat you know so you might have a program that they treat adolescent boys 16 to 18 who are on the spectrum who are dealing with some oppositional defiance disorder and so they get really targeted about who they treat and who they don't trade and are able to create a program that makes sure they meet the needs of those individuals um but in the in the adult world it's pretty wide open we're treating adults with addiction you know and that ranges from the 18 year old who's still at home to the the 70 year old who uh is struggling with alcohol and those are those two individuals have very different needs um and very different places in life and so during this time we've we've recognized that we got to get very specific about who we treat and and you know more specifically who we don't treat um and we have settled on a population that is uh more of a adult population who is more internally motivated we have kind of carved out a niche where we're treating a lot of people who uh i've got a lot of underlying trauma and and in kind of carving that out we've created a program that is really well suited for first responders so whether it's military police fire correctional officers emts they got a lot of trauma a lot of underlying trauma that is has not been resolved that is really at the core of what they're dealing with and until that trauma gets addressed you know whether it's substance or depression we really are not going to be able to get at that and so we've we've created a program where where we're 30 and above uh our average age is around 45. uh it's uh a lot of first responders but it's more kind of professionals who uh have someone who's underlying trauma typically it's dual diagnosis but not always but most of the time it's dual diagnosis and both chemical dependence and mental health but our program um really wants to look at treatment in a different way the traditional model looked at the traditional chemical dependence treatment really focuses on the substance you know you get in there and there's a lot of emphasis on drug of choice and how do you just not use not use don't use don't use and that's really kind of hammering at home and you know the the the the 12-step model which i i have nothing against the 12-step model i think it's great but a lot of programs that just focus on the 12 steps it's really about hey this is the program and if you're not it's not working for you you're not trying hard enough and the reality is um individuals struggling with substance abuse there's there's a lot of underlying issues and not everyone's going to have the the same recovery path and so if we're going to be effective we really got to help each individual understand kind of what are those underlying drivers and what is the recovery path that's going to be best suited for them the 12 steps is part of that that's great but we want to view we want to view the substance use as the symptom it's a behavior and if you're going to effectively address that behavior you really got to understand those underlying issues what is driving that symptom and until you do until you understand that and you make sure that you've had a chance to address that uh you're really swimming upstream you know you're trying to just kind of change this one last decision and that's part of the reason why treatment is so traditionally has been so ineffective is because you're trying to get someone to make a different decision but you haven't really addressed those those drivers to that decision and you know people get out and they do okay for a while but they're really just kind of white knuckling and eventually life stretchers catch up with them and unless they've really built a strong foundation and addressed those underlying issues and built some skills and competencies that allow them to be able to make those different decisions it's it's going to catch up to them and so we've really tried to create a program that is at its foundation really looking at it it's a lot more holistic it's looking at the whole self understanding that it's all connected and uh whether it's your family systems your kind of personal relations your your biological wellness all these things are connected and all of them is about building resilience we know that substance use is a stress response and if we're going to address the stress response we really got to build that resilience that allows us to be able to manage that stress in a different way and so we're really looking at a lot of things that have nothing to do with the substance piece we're going to address it sure but it's a very small part of what we're trying to do in treatment we're really helping people build the best version of themselves be able to build some skills and some tools to be able to manage the stressors in life whether it be their you know their relationships with their families whether it be their coping tools at work whether it be some financial stress or stressors or taking care of themselves biologically all these things are factors in in building the best version of yourself and giving yourself the the foundation to be able to now make some different decisions and so that's really what we're trying to create that's incredible and i i think about first responders and it is a very specialized group of people and and they're out there protecting us they're out there putting their lives at risk regularly and some of the coping strategies that they have in place that cause the trauma you can't really take them away what's your what's your perspective how do you address that well a big part of it is starting to talk about it right uh there is historically been a culture with first responders that we don't really talk about it this is just part of the job and there's this there's this cumulative stress that that develops as well as this vicarious trauma that you know they keep getting exposed to things over and over again and uh the culture hasn't been where they are able to talk about it with their buddies it's kind of like hey suck it up um and you know they get in this mode where they're not able to talk about it with their families because they don't want to you know bring this traumatic stuff home and and dump it on them and so their coping mechanisms increasingly have been just going out to the bar and and having a drink and that just builds on itself you know and eventually there's this kind of cumulative piece that develops and eventually they snap that's why they're seeing a much higher suicide rate than they are having officers and firefighters killed in the line of duty by multiples and it's only in the last several years that the culture has started to change and said hey we got to start to we got to start to get help people before get our people help before the wheels come off we got to start addressing this before they get to that point where they they got a gun in their mouth uh and so we're seeing departments start to address that um um but it it's it's a it's a pretty slow process uh but it's it's been really interesting and uh to be able to be a part of that because we're going in and having these conversations with departments and their peer support our clients are coming out to us and um and usually like i said when the wheels start coming off and and things have really fallen apart they come out to us but really what we want to do with them is to be able to bring their peer support into their treatment process help them understand what's going on what are the skills and tools they're learning bring them part into the support network so part of what we do is we will have that officer that firefighter bring their peer support into the conversation and before they leave we get on the phone with them and that we get on a zoom session and the officer will say hey this is what my plan looks like here's here's the tools and skills that i've built here's what success looks like for me here's what regression looks like for me and i want you guys to be a part of that and when you guys start to see these behaviors i'm giving you permission to intervene and i'm going to come and sit down with you on a regular basis and and we're going to have a check-in and what it does is it starts to help them to to start to have a different conversation with not only their their employee who has got treatment but to start to have a different conversation in their departments and so really it's we're trying to to normalize treatment and and also start to change the conversation so that it is not so shame-based and taboo to get help well that's part of the challenge is that you know here's these first responders everybody's depending on them and they can't let anybody down so the stigma of of saying i'm not okay and i need help is pretty high do you see it shift yeah uh i that there is a big shift right now uh but it it it's happening in certain departments certain departments are quite progressive and they're trying to uh they're recognizing this and part of this is is driven by the fact that they can't get enough people right now to to join the police force you know there's a lot of stress right now especially over this last year and they can't hire enough people they're they're getting a lot of people who are are dealing with ptsd from just being an officer and they're they're losing people so recognizing that if we're going to keep people we we got to start getting them help uh but there are still departments where um an individual doesn't feel like they can come forward and say i need help uh so they're suffering in silence and when they are going to get treatment they're having to do it on the on the down low uh but there's others that are are coming and saying hey buddy we think you need help let's go get you some help and we're gonna make sure that this is covered and we're paying for it and you got the time off and yeah you're getting paid for it and those ones are are really the ones that are kind of driving the discussion nationally uh we were just able to we are one of only a couple facilities that are approved by the fop the national uh the fraternal order of police which is the largest police union and we were able to just go out about a month ago to their just their second annual wellness conference and so for the first time they're starting to talk about this on a national level how do we make sure that each of these departments and our union members have the resources and tools to start to get help before it gets it gets to where they got to come to us wow that is incredible that is incredible that's pretty awesome it's interesting that i think as an industry we've seen some of that redirect from treating the symptom right which like you talked about the substance to treating the emotional underlying issues right and and a lot of times that trauma might be childhood-based right it might be past relationship or abuse based or some type of a circumstance where maybe the individual isn't currently in right a lot of them they're just maybe the individual might not have learned those skills yet right um because they're just relationship skills or or dealing with stress skills or whatever they are this crowd can't quit right like that's part of the challenge this is this is an individual's livelihood right and so if they're scared of showing up to work the next day or running through that door or making the next pullover or whatever it is they're doing you know i could see that being pretty scary on a day-to-day basis right so that's it's super interesting that you that you've been able to help those individuals kind of make some of those adjustments you talked about how when you got into the industry there were sacred cows right and i assume i assumed by sacred cow you mean you know kind of practices that that weren't being questioned regardless of success or whatever um you know what are what are some of those things right can can you give us any idea you know what maybe some of those things were because i would make the assumption that some of those were working right some of them weren't right so there's some things that you just don't question some good some bad um you know what are some of those things and what are some of the things that you've tried to replace those with well you know a big one was that the 12-step tradition you know for a lot of people in this industry they are in recovery themselves so they kind of came through the process and this worked for me and i i know it'll work for you if you just try harder and so that was a big one also there is a there is kind of historically there is this fairly punitive approach to to treatment both in the adolescent world uh but also in the substance world where you're an addict you don't know what's good for you obviously what you've been doing hasn't been working we're gonna break you down and we're going to teach you some discipline and we're going to build you back up and that is the way that treatment historically has happened and even even as we've uh kind of it has evolved a little bit and we're in nicer facilities and there's some massages and sushi whatnot still at the core there's a lot of programs that are still that way where it's fairly punitive based where you know we're you're getting to merits or you're you're losing your cigarette privilege and we're gonna kind of coerce and manipulate uh uh to get the right result yeah and it it seems kind of counterintuitive but um you know when you have these programs that are are trying to move a lot of people through and they're trying to make sure that everybody is kind of living up to a certain standard unfortunately that is the way still a lot of treatment still happens um i don't feel that that is a way to affect lasting change you know you might get people to comply on the outside but on the inside they're flipping you off and they're just biting their time till they can do what they want even with adolescents even though that is you have a little bit more latitude because they got to do what you tell them but especially with adults i think if you want to affect lasting change you have to have a much more collaborative approach you got to kind of work hand in hand with them to help them accomplish their goals and you got to help them recognize that they're in the driver's seat this is their program and if this is going to work they got to feel that sense of ownership and connection to it if it's just somebody else's program and you walk out that door and you get stressed and triggered it's not going to work for you you know you got to feel that sense of ownership where you're not going to get creative about making it work when you get out and really trying to get out of the role of we're the experts and we're going to tell you what to do and move into the role of we're going to make you the expert we're going to make you the owner of your own recovery uh and you're going to you're going to be the one driving this you know you get a lot of people who have been through treatment and they get there and they want you to tell them what to do you know and and when we refuse to do that and we say hey this is your recovery we're putting you in the driver's seat uh it's uncomfortable for people you know they want to like hey tell me the hoops to jump through and i'll jump through them give me the script and i'll i'll feed it back to you um but that's uh it seems fairly common sense uh but it's a pretty big paradigm shift in the way things have been traditionally done and so uh yeah that's one of the areas that we really wanted to change and then just uh just trying to say recognize that on a day-to-day basis is we don't got to figure it out uh you know from whether from client to client we got to be be pretty nimble and say hey what does this person need and not everyone's going to need the same thing and there's a lot of different resources we can bring to bear and we've got to be you know release the ego enough that we're willing to change what we're doing or make sure we're making adjustments so that each person is getting what they need and you know even in the eight years or almost nine years that we've been doing this uh the the best practices and the and what evidence is showing us is working shifts all the time and trying to stay on top of that and bring new resources to bear we just added a really strong neural feedback component and it's amazing how how that is really shifting kind of how people are thinking about it and it's it's drastically changing recovery rates uh but you know that's something that wasn't around six or seven years ago when we started what is that what's neurofeedback neurofeedback is um is uh it's a system where we're we're hooking up these sensors to your brain and it is it is monitoring what's going on in your head and as your as your brain waves start to deviate and start to kind of go off course it gives you some feedback and brings them back center and so you can you can do these scans where you're able to identify which parts of the brain are firing and which parts are not and then and create a protocol where it is helping to activate different different regions of the brain we have a system that's more dynamic where it's constantly taking feedback and as you're as you start to veer off as you start to kind of get distracted uh it it gives you some feedback and brings you back center and they the benefits in terms of what they're finding whether it's for atd or depression or anxiety or addiction are huge uh it's you know i had one client that sat down his first time and he'd been just kind of an anxious mess just shaking his knees both knees going at all times his hands just shaking and he did his first 30 minute session and he finished and he's like god i didn't notice anything but all the other clients were like this is the first time in 20 days you haven't been shaking you know and it's we don't even realize kind of the things that are going on but it just helps us uh kind of keep our learn how to how to manage our our our brains in such a way that it kind of trains them uh to to kind of be more centered and not get distracted as much and then get and and stimulate your brain to be firing in a more balanced way so is it like a test is it a treatment it is a protocol uh so you're hooked up to a system and uh it is is taking constant feedback from what's going on in your brain and then it is it is changing the feedback that your brain's getting so as you start to veer off it gives your feedback and brings you back center so somebody will be hooked up we try to make sure that if someone's there for 30 days they have about 20 sessions they're hooked up to a system they sit in a room put some headphones on and they can they can look at a screen that is also given some feedback here they can lay back and close their eyes and it gives this feedback session this it's more kind of like brain training so that's super interesting before and that's you know that's that's kind of just one example of of of the different resources we're trying to bear bring to bear but we're constantly looking out there what's what's working let's test it out uh you know no time where we think we we've we've arrived and we got the formula uh i think the minute that you do that uh and that you're not constantly trying to figure out what else you can do to help your clients succeed you're you're kind of failing yeah it's easier to count relapses than it is to measure emotional growth yeah right or neurologic or whatever kind of growth it is you're achieving for so that's it's interesting you talked about the punitive thing so you know i i when we're even looking at outcomes i don't love counting relapses right uh i don't love the the traditional thinking of you know how many days sober am i um and if i relapse i'm starting over um the reality is are you building a better quality of life do you have the skills and tools to be able to pick yourself back up when you do falter and you know go from a relapse that that takes a year to pull yourself out of to you know i messed up and i had a bad weekend and now i'm i'm i like to think of it more we we try to call it uh regression you know partly because there's a lot of things that happen before that relapse that our regression that if we can be aware of those things and address them before it gets to the point where it's a full-blown relapse we can get ourselves back on course and so when we're thinking about it just you know i succeeded or i failed i relapsed so i failed and i'm going back to zero that is both fairly shame based but also a bit debilitating in terms of you know i failed i messed up i'm no good anymore and uh and for many people it's tough to pull themselves back out of that when if you can look at the bigger picture i've created a better quality of life my relationships are better i'm a better person i'm communicating better and yeah stress got the better of me and i i messed up but i'm picking myself back up and i'm getting back on track and i'm going to learn from this and i now i know that this i can't i can't make these kind of decisions or i'm going to find myself back in that spot so let's not think about it that way let's think about it in terms of more what is the quality of life that you've been able to create for yourself by these decisions you know so that's incredible and i know i know you put a lot of effort and time into really scrutinizing some of these new programs like neural feedback how long did it take you to decide you were going to implement that into your program well as soon as i read the research on it i jumped on figuring out how we implement it uh it took a while to to wade through all the different uh protocols out there and the different technologies and figure out which ones we wanted to bring on because there's a lot of different companies and systems but as soon as i i read the research there's some some research papers especially around uh alcohol use uh the effectiveness of those who are engaged in neurofeedback well in treatment versus those or not as soon as i read that i was like uh it's not cheap uh but we we gotta have that you know the the thing i say i i i wanna be able to say at the end of the day to someone's parents or their spouse uh we've done everything we possibly can to be able to help somebody succeed and when i when i saw the statistics around that i said hey we can't we cannot go another month without having this uh as an option for our clients that's incredible and i've heard a lot of really amazing work that's done with the neurofeedback it's just such a great supplement let me let me shift gears just a little bit and ask you a question that i that i ask i often ask people or make a statement and you tell me what you think about it is that addiction connection is the opposite of addiction do you agree or disagree or how do you feel about that statement i totally agree i i think that is definitely the case and it is definitely made this last year a lot harder for people you know um coming to treatment and then discharging uh when we're we're helping someone discharge we're putting together a really robust discharge plan and at the core of that is connection right it's it's how do you get involved how do you get back and go build the relationships with your family and your community how do you make sure you have this kind of support and going home and and being isolated and not being able to engage in that connection has been really hard for people uh and i think it's been hard for even people who haven't come into treatment uh i think it has made people struggling with substance abuse and depression and anxiety uh uh a lot tougher and that connection is everything um you know i think that's one of the reasons why treatment is so successful is because we're in this close-knit group and they feel so connected i think that's one of the benefits too of being more specific about who we treat so that people are going through treatment with people that they can relate to and they can better support each other but you know figuring out how we make sure that we take that connection and that community that they feel in treatment and it translates to when they get out uh it's been you know a little bit of a challenge we've had to rethink of that because what we were doing before is just not possible right now but we've we've gotten really creative about how we do that but yeah i agree with you completely that the opposite of addiction is connection and it's community and uh when you feel that sense of connection and that purpose that comes and the fulfillment that comes with uh being involved with people uh that is that is at least half of it yeah it's huge i agree so i heard you say there was a time in your life before you had chateau where you went out played with some big animals and tried to figure things out what is connection and and self-care what does that look like in your life personally uh well i got four little kids and so um my self-care is kind of i don't want to say hijacked by those little kids but it is it is focused around those kids for me it's really important that i um a big part of what we do at chateau is this mindfulness piece and um where i got work and i got my kids uh and and those consume most my waking hours meditation is huge i got to wake up early and have some time for myself and to be able to to have some mindfulness practice early in the morning before everything starts and when i'm doing that i can stay pretty grounded but i notice pretty quickly when i'm not doing that how easy it is to get off kilter and how how much more stress affects me when i'm not taking that time and that's that's one of the pieces that we we really focus on at chateau is how do you really how do you figure out how to how to take some time for yourself and develop a mindfulness practice where you can just be a little bit more aware of what it is that you need and you can start to see that coming before it gets off the rails and and is i know you had a list of things you know that you you wanted when you you know as you got back into business and you wanted your own business you wanted some things has chateau fulfilled that for you yeah yeah uh it definitely has it's uh it's it's not one of those businesses where you can uh put it in autopilot and uh you know show up uh uh once every couple weeks and it's one that where you're it's a human-based business and and uh it requires kind of constant tweaking and adjusting to make sure that we're meeting our clients needs and um which it definitely is uh it is a lot more involved on a day-to-day basis than i had anticipated but it is one that you you go home feeling exhausted but fulfilled very cool what's your school of meditation what'd you learn uh well i i lived in in the job before i came here i was living in india for about three and a half years and so um i i practiced with a bunch of different different approaches um and kind of learned a bunch of different techniques and kind of what i do is as a combination of those now but it's just 20 minutes of uh i have some noise cancelling headphones uh and some music that kind of just helps me avoid the distraction of little kids coming out but just that it's kind of a hybrid of a few different approaches but if i can have just 20 minutes every morning i'm good to go cool very cool i think the work that you're doing is incredible i always i always love keeping in touch and and hearing the new things that you're trying to implement and all of the people that you're helping and serving um interesting tidbit is that when i was doing my internship i actually worked up at wasn't the chateau then it was another treatment facility but i have a little history with with that particular location and so you know it's near and dear to my heart so i love hearing all of the different things you're implementing it's pretty amazing if um you know if a first responder or or someone else is listening wants to be able to get a hold of you to find out more information of maybe how they can get help or what you know even just information from you what's the best way for them to get a hold of you uh just head to the website uh chateaurecovery.com and uh there's contact information there we've got uh reach out there and someone will will help navigate the process we have a philosophy that we're not the right place for everybody but we want to make sure that everybody who contacts us is able to to get to a place that's going to be the right place for them and so our team is great at helping people navigate that helping people understand the treatment industry it's it's a little daunting when you call looking for treatment to even understand what to ask and what are the relevant factors in deciding treatment and we we have some resources to to provide people to just help them know what to ask and how to evaluate whether this is the right treatment for me and so our guys are great at being able to help you just figure out what are the options and how do you navigate this process so even if they don't end up coming to chateau you're going to make sure that they have resources to make a good solid decision absolutely that's what it's all about right we're in the business of helping people get better and we're not always going to be the right choice for people but we're our job is to to help them figure that out and you know most the people who call us don't come to us but our guys help every single person figure out where's the right place to go that's incredible danny thanks for coming today thanks for just sharing your story and sharing you know your your passion and um and being willing to to uh affect change danny fun to see the success that you've been having and be a part of that you're growing um and we understand you're also keeping an eye out for an additional therapist to augment your staff help you continue to grow is that true yeah we are i got a search going on right now for another therapist who is trauma trained uh is experienced in some different trauma modalities ideally they have some experience working with the first responder population if not a first responder themselves but it's an environment where you know you gotta lower case load a lot more individual time with with each client and the ability to get pretty creative about the treatment interventions that we're bringing to bear so it's a great opportunity for somebody who's the right fit but you know in a smaller facility we're really trying to focus on culture and making sure we have somebody that shares our treatment philosophy so if there's somebody out there who either knows someone who'd be a right fit or or is interested please reach out i'd love to talk to you and figure out if we can make something happen added benefit of getting to work in the beautiful midway utah right yeah on the heck i love that drive every day i would see the big balloons coming up the canyon and i would live for that drive it was beautiful they're uglier places to work wow it's incredible up there thank you very much
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