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030 - Angelina Gripp

Updated: May 21

Angelina has a Masters Degree in Social Work from USC and is pursuing a PhD in Depth Psychology. She is a self-proclaimed “late bloomer” and runs Arena Therapy Services in Costa Mesa, CA. She talks about having family members in addiction, working through personal pain and triggers in order to work with women, and gives us some book suggestions. Enjoy.


The Illuminate Recovery Podcast is about Mental Health, Mental Illness, and Addiction Recovery. Shining light on ways to cope, manage, and inspire. Beyond the self care we discuss, you may need the help of a licensed professional. Curt Neider and Shelley Mangum are a part of Illuminate Billing Advocates. They are committed to helping better the industry and adding value to the lives of listeners by sharing tools, insights, and success stories of those who are working on their mental health.













https://anchor.fm/illuminaterecoverypodcast/episodes/030---Angelina-Gripp-e11528p


Transcript (No grammar): angelina grip has a master's degree in social work from usc and is pursuing a phd in depth psychology she is a self-proclaimed late bloomer and runs arena therapy services in costa mesa california she talks about having family members in addiction working through personal pain and triggers in order to work with women and gives us some book suggestions enjoy welcome to the illuminate recovery podcast we shed light on mental health issues mental illness and addiction recovery ways to cope manage and inspire beyond self-care we will discuss you may need the help of a licensed professional my name is kurt knighter i'm a husband father entrepreneur a handyman and a student of life i avoid conflict i deflect with humor and i'm fascinated by the human experience and i'm shelley mangum i am a clinical mental health counselor and my favorite role of all times is grandma i am a seeker of truth and i feel like life should be approached with tremendous curiosity i ask the dumb questions i fill in the gaps the illuminate recovery podcast is brought to you by illuminate billing advocates make billing and collection simple with leader in substance abuse and mental health billing services verification and analysis of benefits pre-authorizations utilization management accurate claim submission and management denial and appeal management and industry leading reporting improve your practices cash flow and your ability to help your clients with eliminate billing advocates today we have angelina gripp with us she is a licensed clinical social worker she's a leader in the life after treatment mental health addiction and wellness she's also a media personality and founder of arena therapy services angelina thanks for being willing to be with us today it's my pleasure thank you for having me um let's just start out by getting a little bit of background um kind of you know you're you're a licensed clinical social worker and that is quite a journey in and of itself give some background of where you come from and how you ended up where you're at uh i'm actually a late bloomer i would say in the clinical field i didn't start my journey educational journey until 2008 i believe it was um i'm originally from australia i've been here for 26 years and i was transitioning i was a single mom and trying to change jobs and realized that as i was had all this experience i was in sales and business development back in the day and i tried to change careers and i realized that it was very difficult without a degree so i started school at 35 and late late we were there but um i remember starting out in business actually and because that was the only really path i thought i had at the time and about a year into it um my friends had an intervention they're like what are you doing you you uh you should be doing psychology you're um everybody wants to talk to you about their problems and you you just seem so much better suited to that and being stubborn like i am i'm like you don't tell me what to do i'm fine thank you a few months later i changed because it was my choice right so um i i did i went straight through i did my undergrad then i went to got my graduate degree and actually now doing a phd program which i just started um a year ago in my second year right now and so i went to university of phoenix and worked full-time went to school full-time single mom i think a lot of people out there are doing that these days and hats off too because i remember it was a growing experience i had no social life no life outside of school and and my family but that was fine with me at the time and um and then usc for my master's degree and with it with an lcsw you graduate with a master's in social work and then it's two to three years depending on how long it takes you to get your your hours it was 3500 at that time experience before you're licensed and then you sit your exams and all that kind of stuff so it was a nine year journey i guess when i look back which if you hadn't told me that upfront i would have laughed at you and said you're kidding i'm not doing that but i did and i work in uh addiction and mental health i mean in dual diagnosis we refer to it as and i fell into that when i was in graduate school um we had to take electives and i remember thinking oh addiction looks interesting i'll take that um halfway through the class my family is still in australia i was told that my brother um his girlfriend at the time was having a baby but they were both addicted to ice which is a another name for methamphetamine in australia and it's a huge problem um in the southern hemisphere so i found out that and the baby was born addicted to meth and um then she had another baby a few months later you would have thought that was yeah she had another obviously within a year she had another baby and that one um was born one of them was born with developmental delays and so i became very passionate about it for for mothers and and women to be able to take care of their themselves and get educated and find ways to combat addiction but for the first couple of years of my career i i could not work with women um you could not work with women even though that's what i wanted to do ultimately there was a lot of one of the things we learn when we're in school is you know what is what are your hot buttons what is it that you that you find that you can't actually participate in without bringing in your own personal feelings kind of transparent right and i was having a lot of it my first job i was working as i started out um working with women and men and when i was asked what's your preference i said please put me with the men because the women were really triggering for me and it took me probably three or four years before i could finally show up without all that kind of transparency judgment and even though you don't want to be that way there's a part of you that can't help it and when you bring your own stuff into a a room with a patient that's not okay so i was very aware of that and um but now i have a lot of female clients a lot of women that i work with because i think i work through my own stuff and um and now it's what i wanted originally which is great that's super fascinating and i love that you can that you pick up on that right that you that that's something that we do in our education because as a clinical mental health counselor same thing right there are areas that i'm like yeah i'm not going there i'm not going there do you so obviously you've done your work around it can you talk a little bit about where those triggers came from and and how they exhibited because i think that's fascinating because we don't we don't you know we don't go after that right it just kind of shows up it does it does and um i think a lot of it it was my brother and and i haven't seen my brother and spent a lot of time with my brother in years because they live in australia so i'm kind of estranged i would say for the most part from my family over there i don't get to see them every you know summer or anything like that because they're so far away but um i he and i had a very close relationship when he was little my brother and i are 15 years apart and um as a little one i spent a lot of time raising him and he was my you know my little brother and um and then as i've moved over to the united states i definitely don't get a chance to spend as much time with them anymore but uh this you know families family whether we love them more or at some times hate them right when we have our moments with them um no matter what i i was devastated to find out that um he was going to be bringing a child into the world that was addicted to drugs uh because i was learning in school at that time about what was going on and and how that affects people and how that affects the child and the future and all that kind of stuff so um i was very angry initially but i i misinterpreted i i believe now talking to you about this that i misinterpreted my anger for passion originally right because it was actually i was pretty pretty angry so um i've been doing my own work as a therapist in therapy um since i was actually 13 years old there ago i started very young but i think doing my own work and having to admit that i was really angry was really difficult um it still is at times when i when i sit there and think about how angry i was um because i couldn't understand why i would get this resistance and and you know people are very intuitive and that's part of the the you know therapeutic alliance is that there's an unspoken energy that occurs between two people and i can sit here in front of you and say oh no i'm fine it doesn't bother me at all but every other signal in my body is telling you i'm uncomfortable with this and that's kind of what was going on so i had to work through that it was it was uncomfortable you know yeah and then we're on to the next thing because there's always something right well and it you know you kind of being parentified with your brother just not necessarily because you had to but you certainly were in 15 years would definitely put you in that space of you know mothering and and being you know being wanting to do those kinds of things with your brother and so i suspect that there was a lot of dynamics there that you know that were under the surface that you weren't really aware of and and almost as a mother being disappointed in a child type of a experience and i think even as a mother being very protective of innocence and and raging at the fact that you know an innocent life was affected by in my mind back then because i was still learning i thought that they had control over it oh well you know you're choosing to do this um realizing much later which i think is where some of the forgiveness and understanding has occurred because i realize that it's a disease addiction is a disease versus oh you're choosing to go get high and um yeah it was difficult and being a mother myself so absolutely uh that was that was a challenge and then you know my mother was an alcoholic she'll never admit that to this day but she was and so it was a parentified child i did take care of my siblings and i think that's all this wrapped up and you know we do our work thinking that we could just show up and sit in front of a patient or a client or whatever whatever we want to call them at the time and and just listen to their problems and everything's going to be fine and we've got all this wisdom and it's not that at all it's two humans coming together and yes we have training but at the same time we we show up with the with ourselves with who we are and a lot of stuff comes with it if we're not careful well and if you're not doing your own work as a therapist then you know the good therapists do their own work right good good therapists have to do their own work i remember that was one of the things they said is if you're going to be a therapist you better get a therapist [Laughter] absolutely i mean i still meet with one once a week um now it's also part of my requirement for school but even if it wasn't i still would i think it's really important because we go out you get when you get licensed you no longer have to report to a supervisor i had that luxury but a supervisor is not a therapist i'm not your therapist at least and um and i think it's just important for us to process in some way or form something's going to affect us because we care about the people we work with and and then on top of that our own stuff that gets triggered and people will say to me how did you learn to be able to sit in front of people and not because some of the stories i hear horrific and just fall apart with them because that used to be the old me was like let me let me be sad with you right and then my training taught me that's not really what we're supposed to be doing we're supposed to help people help themselves and um and i have this kind of it's almost a mental holding a little i don't know what you want to call it when something comes up for me i put it aside mentally and go ah okay that was triggering i felt that and then i can check in with myself often afterwards like okay do i still need to think through that is that something that's still coming up and if it is then i'll i'll put it in my head to talk to the therapist about it or call someone right away yeah so so profound i've noticed as you've talked that there was quite a paradigm shift between what you used to think about substance abuse and where you are now can you talk about that shift for you and and what caused it you know kind of what you went through yeah um you know i in the community they call it making amends when the 12-step program you make amends to people and i've had to do that to people who were um struggling with addiction friends in the past because i had such a narrow um i was very i guess i was judgmental i i mean to say that about myself is uncomfortable but i was i mean i came from uh you know a catholic upbringing um very strict catholic upbringing and had this idea that you know there was a choice if you did something you had a choice to do something good or bad that you know you didn't just happen to you and um i learned that when it was in school when i started to understand a lot of things from sexuality through to addiction the biological component in that and i started to realize that i was very wrong and and i needed to like i said make amends to the people that i had judged and um and also myself i think because you don't know what you don't know and uh and and i'm grateful i got an opportunity to expand my understanding so the understanding that it's a disease the understanding of the the mechanics of what addiction is and how it affects people um as well as it being a part of a much larger picture of their whole life experience right uh i just i think that there was just compassion that that kicked in versus judgment well it's powerful and it's and it's not the idea that they don't have some choice and they don't have absolute responsibility for their recovery and their healing but in the heart of addiction that takes over right it it takes over it's more important than relationships it's more important than safety it's more important than a house to be in or a roof over your head it's more important than food right that drug becomes the most important thing in your system your body is telling you you're going to die without it and in that kind of a place you don't make really great decisions then it becomes as necessary as breathing to people you know i mean you made a good point you know like they will make a choice between do i eat or do i get high and and do i pick up my kid from school or do i go and meet my dealer who's only got time to meet me right now well you know what i'm going to be allowed to pick up my kid or maybe i won't pick up my kid and i couldn't understand that um and you mentioned that there it's a combination of having a choice and um i guess personal responsibility right to a certain point and there's always that little gap right before someone gets high again i think when there's a bit of clarity and that's when we try and work with people hopefully to be able to okay you're ready you're ready to make a change or a different not so much a choice in that moment but kinda are you ready to maybe just turn away a little and see if there's another another way to live your life than the way you've been living it well and i love how you've talked about your shift in in you know having a very limited understanding of what addiction is and what you know maybe even what being a human being is right because we come into this world with our own experiences and our own perspective and when when we start to expand that and learn more it allows us to have so much more compassion and understanding for what somebody else is going through and i think that's really been um if you know when i talk to other therapists and then and do supervision with them and stuff like that in the past it's it's it's really about being able to understand where where another person is coming from meeting them where they're at here's the question here's the question that's in front of my mind um is that these shifts that you've made these you know experiences that you've had that have helped you and your education help you see things differently i imagine that you know your mom was an alcoholic you said that your brother had you know methamphetamine or ice issues right addiction and all of the things that came with that do you have other close relationships that that's been a theme for you uh well my sister too is now struggling apparently um with alcoholism she's seven years younger than me um friends is it's interesting you say that that's uh it's almost like do are you attracting that kind of as a result of your your family unit have you continued to think that that's something that well you're comfortable with it right so do you think that that's that's what you um how you how you show up rest in life is when you're in these types of relationships um yeah actually yeah i would say that's the truth but i would say most of the people that i've interacted with today um are people who are in recovery versus people who are still struggling um i don't have anybody in my own personal circle that's struggling that that i interact with on a regular basis um but definitely i am much more comfortable even though i'm not in recovery in the community of recovery which is interesting well and it's interesting what you said is is that as as you as you do your healing and you do your own work the people you associate with tend to shift because we associate with what we're comfortable with when that's familiar to us and we those patterns although they're miserable and uncomfortable we know what to expect and as we heal and get better we can start to it does it shifts the people you hang out with right and that's that's just a basic recovery piece is is your support network is is your key right absolutely i remember before my son went into recovery um that i used to always blame it on his friends i think most parents do always his friends you know he's hanging around with a bad crowd and and that's why he's he's misbehaving little did i know my son was the ringleader um of these of these groups and you know again eat crow and i've eaten a lot of crow in my life wrong thank god i'm okay with that but uh yeah i just i just remember wanting for him more than anything for him to find people in a community that supported him in a really healthy way and i knew that there was a distance that was between where he was at and where he could be but i didn't know whether he was going to make that that change or not right because i can't force anybody to do anything today he he's got an amazing support network of people in recovery all his friends are in recovery and he says it's just for people that are in recovery and he goes to meetings on a regular basis and he's just just turned 25 last week and um and it's beautiful to see that because you know i remember before i even realized he was an addict all i wanted him to do was to go to college get a degree get a good job get married do whatever it is you want to do now i'm just like i just want you to stay alive and be happy right but those i imagine that was quite a transformation as well and coming from you know as a mother myself at first right with my first children i'm like no you will do it my way and i will show you what it is and and then i quickly learned as they become teenagers that i had no control over what they chose to do is all i could do is love them and right there was a transition there what was that like for you absolutely awful [Laughter] and painful and uh and i don't know any other way to put it i i i just remember feeling so helpless um because i was a therapist in an intern at the time i was a new therapist when i finally realized my son had a problem and um and i still remember calling the an interventionist because i didn't know what else to do i worked in treatment at the time i didn't feel like i could go to where i worked to get him help you know but i um i remember calling this interventionist and saying i'm not sure i think he might be after i just found weed and the pot and all this other stuff and it obviously i thought he was just doing weed and maybe drinking and not that that's any better but it's not as an immediate death as something like what he was doing and because i don't want to you know i don't want to mix signals here where people think oh it's okay if they do weird it's okay if they drink um i think i had a little bit of that going on thinking well if that's all he's doing okay it's not so bad actually it is it is just as bad um on a developing brain and he was doing a lot of other things and i just remember feeling like oh i'm a failure as a mother what do i do here um now his dad has more ammunition you know things like that it became about me but also with him what do i do with you i and we had a rocky time together he and i ended up homeless together it was great not so much i laugh now but geez we couch surfed together and just trying to do everything i could to get him help and to be there for him and to make sure that he could stay i guess i thought i had power to keep him alive yeah well that is who is is we're going to use all of our power we're going to save you we can do this and and then it slaps us in the face and and at some point we realize yeah no you you can't save them they've got to save themselves as all you can do is love them and give them tools but they've got to decide and that that is the hardest thing i think as a mother to let go of i don't we can call it control but and it is it's control but to let go of that and start to see them differently it's powerful but oh it's painful i think it's also um it's it's we have as mothers in those situations it's very instinctive for us that child falls down and hurts themselves they scratch they eat them they fall or they they catch themselves so it's not even like i had to think about oh how i'm going to help but when you're there to help with the situation that you'll power us over it's it's my it's frightening it's terrifying i'm i'm revisiting that in in a way right now i just remember feeling like i i remember not sleeping for you know very well for weeks on end because he'd gone out and i didn't know whether i was going to get a call that he was going to be dead and and things like that that were um and i realized no matter how much i tried to keep him in check i there was i had no business doing that because he was gonna do what he wants to do no matter what and yeah that was probably the hardest thing to realize is that you know he's going to fall and i have to stand here and i can't pick him up and off his knees for him because if i do i could be potentially making it worse yeah that enabling peace well and you talked about you talked about maybe not realizing or you know that the mindset of you know weed and alcohol is not that bad it'll be okay but but what you really to me what i heard you say was denial is blissful right to deny what we what we probably know is really happening and how bad it really is denial keeps us in this safe place because if i don't really acknowledge how bad it is then i don't have to go figure out how to save him or i don't have to feel all of those emotions that are involved with that right the pain of i might lose my child and all of that so denial is a really beautiful painful not so healthy coping strategy right it really is and and i um i received a beautiful article from one of my patients this morning actually that was talking very much about that and it included addiction in that in that story about how um i think that we have a culture that tells us that we don't have to deal with hard things that you know what if you don't like it we can cancel it if you don't want to listen to that we can turn it off if you don't if you can walk away you can call someone names and and that's it you've dealt with it um and with addiction um included in that it's there is no way around pain right there is no way around it um you may be able to temporarily hold off the experience of it but the only way through a problem and through life itself is to go through it and and i think that that's um culturally it would be beautiful to see that being more um letting people know that that's actually what life is about because i feel like our culture is very much about you know let's let's let's gloss things over it's very much a denial culture is how i feel well and that's true that's i think a lot of why we're in an opioid crisis is because our you know our mentality is let's eliminate pain so that we don't ever have to experience that and that is not a human existence right because how do you grow without the challenges how do you how do we get like you talked about that transition and that change that transformation that you've made as you've grown and learned but you've had some really painful experiences that got you there would you give any of it up would you go back and say i don't want any of those because it was too hard if you had asked me while i'm in it absolutely right but um in retrospect no because i think that you know how do we grow as human beings we we grow through adversity we become more who we are by overcoming the challenges that we affect that we face and and i think it's um you know the person who hasn't faced any adversity whatsoever um someone who hasn't had difficult experiences introduce me to someone like that because i haven't met one yet right and i don't want to be that person anymore that you know has this easy life you know sometimes i've got to go find not that we go look for it but we we need to work hard and we need to know what we want and go after it and that's not going to be easy right and i listen to what you've talked about with your family and the transitions you've made from you know living in a space where you grew up with addiction and being able to to change your life and change your perspective that came with with some effort and it's pretty profound because you've you've um you've broken into in many ways you've broken the chain the chain of addiction and you've you've all learned your son and you and and your family members have learned what it looks like to recover and to live healthy and what is that right what's our healthy relationship look like and that really isn't that the key i i would i would say yes um it's important to have healthy relationships but when i when i meet with potential clients and and even when i when i do talks and things like that i talk about um we're not here to to help you recovery isn't a bed of roses a life isn't either it's not like you're gonna have you know unicorns and stuff like that and your life's gonna be like happily ever after it's not that recovery and true recovery and maybe true living is being able to really understand and and tolerate discomfort because when you can tolerate discomfort there's always another side you get through it's going through it again right instead of going around it so i guess that's what um i work with with all the people i work with is let's let's get you to be able to be okay with not being okay right and there's there's value in going through that right what what if we said addiction you know it isn't i didn't cause it or i didn't you know maybe i made some choices around it but maybe this is my journey and how i'm gonna make the best of this journey that i'm on right it can take me out and i can die or i can figure out some skills and some and shift it and change it and that's where to me that's where the power is right the power is in choosing to get the help that you need and to change it whatever that looks like you had mentioned before we were talking about denial and and and what if it's um and i was just thinking about this as you were talking what if overcoming addiction um is really about overcoming denial right being able to blow up right because i think addiction is very much a form of denial yeah well i think it's part of it there's a lot of a lot of protective mechanisms i call them protective mechanisms that we put in place to protect us so we don't have to feel the pain absolutely and it's not necessarily a drug right sometimes it's just our coping strategies it's maybe what we saw our parents do or people you know the people who modeled for us we saw them do it and until you learn something different you have no way of knowing right and i think that's the hard thing too for people that do know versus people who don't and and being able to give the people who don't some grace and and being able to say okay maybe you don't but instead of what do they say make the pie bigger right because i've looked at this pie for so long this is where i think things are and then you get an opportunity to learn more and add more knowledge into that and you get to make different decisions but if you don't know you don't know that there's other choices out there so so yeah i think it's important and i think that's the job of a therapist is to expand their awareness right is to give them a perspective that's different than what they already know and and there's so many good tools and approaches to doing that now that it's incredible we're learning so much more about how to facilitate that in a very healthy human respectful way i think that's why i ended up doing the phd program i'm doing is um i had a very uh kind of the evidence-based approach to therapy right so using a lot of of what i've been taught and i've always felt like there was something missing in being able to really approach the the whole human experience and i had a lot of people that were working with me that were doing a lot of the um alternative types of medicine and and i thought okay well i love that idea but without training i guess maybe i'm a bit of a geek there i feel like if i have the education first underneath that then maybe i'm gonna be able to support that a little more so i'm getting a phd right now at um pacifica graduate institute i'm in my second year in depth psychology and um and specializing in integrative therapy and healing practices so it's really interesting being able to bring that whole human part back into it the unconscious and as opposed to just sitting in front of someone like i used to do thinking that cbt and things like that and changing someone's thinking was all you needed to do hold on a second where did that thinking come from and there's so much more to an individual than that nothing against cbt it works with other things but um i just found for myself i needed to get more depth and with the individuals i work with um the experience of addiction is a very soul experience it's so destroying at the time experience so i don't know if i can i didn't really feel like i could do the work i needed to do without really learning more about how to get to that and that's what i've been doing which is interesting oh it's absolutely fascinating would you say i found this to be true but but i don't know that everybody agrees with me so i'm just going to ask do you feel like the people that you work with as clients that that they really have within them the answers that they need and that you're really just facilitating helping them find those answers i think most of them do yes i would say most if not all but um and i say most if not all because some of them don't make it and i've had that very real experience of losing a quite a few people that have not been able to get to the other side but um i've always you know i'm not overtly or not really religious so to say but i'm ex-catholic so so um but i still i believe there's something greater than than myself and i think that i look at addicts and and people who struggle with such horrific experiences i think as um almost like if you wanted to say god's true if you wanted to say there's something very special about the people who take on this challenge and and um because it is so it can it can just it tears your life apart it tears other people apart but when we talked about before going through an experience when you come through on the other side the people that i know who are in recovery are some of the most amazing people i've ever met and um and and and i wouldn't and i bet if you ask them the same question you asked me would you would you do it all over again um they probably have the same answer i did not while i was in it but definitely in retrospect yeah yeah well i love the way you bring up that that disclaimer right now while i'm in it right because while we're in it you know and i think back to some of my my painful moments and and it was those moments that i went wait this is why people use drugs because this is so painful i want out of this right now right i don't want to feel this anymore this is get exhausting and and so it gives you those those deep painful moments gives you those under that understanding peace that says oh i get why you're doing this now let's go figure out how to help absolutely and i read something i think i told you earlier i read something this morning part of the article there was a quote and i can't remember who said it but um it was asking the question not why is this happening to me but why is this happening for me and and um when you're in it that's a very very difficult question to ask yourself and i don't think until you start coming out of it on the other side that you're able to kind of get there and go oh okay well now what can i learn from this because in the moment you're just trying to survive right well and i even remember you know early on before you know before i was a therapist you know and and just having the exposure that i had in my life my life experiences a therapist might tell me some of the same things i've heard you say and i would just look at them at like a deer in the headlights right i'm like i have no idea what you're telling me it sounds really good but i don't even know what that means and now i can look back after having gone through it and i can go oh that's what you meant right but most people just don't even have a frame of reference to know some of the term terminology that we're using no they don't and and um and i think that's where it's really important as therapists to be also very honest with ourselves about what frame of reference we can provide because uh you know what we learn in books is one thing but um and lift experience we can't have lived experience in every single situation that walks through our door but um that's where i think compassion and and understanding and being able to ask questions and and being able to remain look i don't understand this can you help me understand this so that you can find the commonality or common ground somewhere but um but i think most therapists have probably had pretty pretty intense lived experience i agree i think so the best ones the very best ones do angelina this has been just absolutely delightful to talk with you and and learn about some of the experiences that you've had and and kind of the transformations that you've made and continue to make so that you can be you know really good at helping people and and helping change their history and their story as well and empowering them to do that i'm wondering if um if you have a favorite author or you know someone that you read or or want to emulate i have a lot of authors that i really enjoy especially being in a phd program right you can see all the books i have here i mean but um there there's somebody i really enjoy reading i think she's she's very rich in in and soulful and uh and has also suffered his uh reception caller estes and she wrote the book um there's two of them that i that i really enjoy women who run with wolves and the other one is um untie the strong woman and uh not that i'm a feminist so to speak but i do definitely uh we're definitely looking into the the imbalance that's occurred between masculine and feminine energy right and so that's a whole another thing we can do a different show on that [Laughter] yeah i really enjoy both of her as an author and i think um her lived experience is what she brings to the table as well as um mythology and stories um and her books are anthologies and there's all these beautiful short stories that she shares and when you think about what we do as therapists too um when we when we really get engaged with a patient that's what we do we share stories and so that's if anyone has a chance to read any of her books i'd recommend it no fantastic angelina thanks for um being on with us today and sharing your wisdom and your insights with us it's been fantastic i've been um very fed and have really enjoyed our conversation so thank you if um if our listeners which i imagine they will will want to you know connect with you and learn more about what you do um you know they may have questions for you what's the best way for them to get a hold of you um through my website and that's arenatherapyservices.com so a-r-e-n-a therapy services or one word dot com and i can be contacted through through the website oh fantastic well i'm sure that uh that people will be reaching out and i'm excited for your doctorate degree as well because it sounds like that is going to bring a lot of depth to your to your practice and what you can do for people so we'll have to visit revisit our visit um here in the future that'll be wonderful i'd enjoy that it's been a pleasure speaking with you both thank you so much thank you

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