KC Gooding joins us from Burning Tree programs. They focus on helping chronic addicts and their families get the help they need to combat substance use disorder. He is busy. He is on multiple boards, including NAATP. He tells his story, the ways he is advocating for the industry and for individuals, and about the methods at Burning Tree.
The Illuminate Recovery Podcast is about Mental Health, Mental Illness, and Addiction Recovery. Shining light on ways to cope, manage, and inspire. Beyond the self care we discuss, you may need the help of a licensed professional. Curt Neider and Shelley Mangum are a part of Illuminate Billing Advocates (illuminatebilling.com). They are committed to helping better the industry and adding value to the lives of listeners by sharing tools, insights, and success stories of those who are working on their mental health.
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welcome to the illuminate recovery podcast we shed light on mental health issues mental illness and addiction recovery ways to cope manage and inspire beyond the self-care we will discuss you may need the help of a licensed professional my name is kurt neider i'm a husband father entrepreneur a handyman and a student of life i avoid conflict i deflect with humor and i'm fascinated by the human experience and i'm shelley mangum i am a clinical mental health counselor and my favorite role of all times is grandma i am a seeker of truth and i feel like life should be approached with tremendous curiosity i ask the dumb questions i fill in the gaps the illuminate recovery podcast is brought to you by illuminate billing advocates make billing and collection simple with leader in substance abuse and mental health billing services verification and analysis of benefits pre-authorizations utilization management accurate claim submission and management denial and appeal management and leading reporting improve your practices cash flow and your ability to help your clients with eliminate billing advocates today um kurt and i have the privilege of talking with k.c gooding casey is currently working as the national business development for burning tree programs um since 1999 burning tree programs have been treating the chronic relapser and their families with three programs they're able to treat substance abuse disorder and underlying mental health issues with the addicts and alcoholics that addicts and alcoholics often face casey is incredibly busy um he is on quite a few boards on the natap as a lead asa for the state of california he's on the casa president um the nadak policies policy sorry public policy committee um and so doing a lot of work in the industry so casey we might uh touch on some of that but thanks so much for being on on with us today well thank you so much for having me shelley looking forward to this opportunity for a while now so thank you again yeah pretty exciting and i know you've got a lot of background um as well as your own recovery story um and and being so involved in in these different organizations you also get a lot of the uh the changes and the best practices and some of the some of the things that are being shifted in the industry so you've got a lot of information to share and maybe we can start if you're open to that is maybe sharing some of your background and some of your you know recovery story and how you ended up where you are today absolutely i'd be happy to um my name is casey and i'm an alcoholic my sobriety date is 11 22 29 2012. uh my journey uh started long before that i found myself in and out of the rooms of alcoholics anonymous and other 12-step programs for quite a number of years i think i spent my 18th birthday in my first rehab uh unfortunately that would not be my last rehab and at the young ripe age of 34 years old my parents contacted me one other one last time after they had sat and talked uh together and you know they had a real frank question for themselves at that moment and you know the severity of my deep dizzy ease was mixed in between them they they asked themselves if our son perishes do we believe that we've done everything we could to save him and fortunately for me at that point in time they stated that they hadn't and so they made one more effort you know they contacted me and said if you're willing to come here to california where they were living at the time where i live now we will find an appropriate treatment for you and we'll support you in any way we can to ensure that you are on the road to recovery and for me at that point in time it was kind of one of those situations where it was like ah you know what am i going to do and it was very evident to me that my life was not going to improve at all under the current circumstances that i had endured and my disease was continuing to be you know it's progressive and fatal and i knew that if i didn't accept the opportunity that i would find myself uh institutionalized jailed or uh likely you know dead so on 11 28 of 2012 i took that detroit metropolitan airport right here to uh santa ana and my parents picked me up and dropped me off the door because of the treatment where i would stay for about 60 days and i continued that care with additional sober living and intensive outpatient support and i built a recovery community about me here in california i got a sponsor i worked all 12 steps and you know i had a spiritual way thickening as reps i certainly understand what my condition is and what separates me from other people that don't have issue with substance that have suffered from a three-fold illness that affects me in my mind body and spirit and um so i had to treat uh this spiritual disease with a spiritual solution and as a result of the 12 steps i was able to find that and um you know as a result of the 12 steps i certainly i'll i have the privilege to to share that with other people now that was that was the short version i'm sure that is the shorter version yes of course i'm wondering you mentioned a couple of things it sounded like you'd been in treatment a couple of times or had you only been in treatment once i i was in treatment at you know 17 to 18 i spent my 18th birthday there i had been in and out of many detox programs locally i went to a few indigent programs in michigan this was kind of before uh you know affordable care act and utilizing insurance for uh for treatment and it wouldn't have mattered much anyway because in those days and times i was uninsured anyway um but i had many treatment experiences yeah um unfortunately i would find myself in a position where i could maintain sobriety for you know a week a month three months even up to 10 months and obviously there would be renewed hope for my family and people that cared for me and they would see my life improve considerably as a result of my commitment to sobriety but the one thing i didn't understand was i was stuck with this spiritual malady and this obsession in my mind that continued to make me think that they wouldn't know or i could get away with it or that i didn't care or all the different lies that i would tell myself just one more time these kind of things and find myself in failure to remain sober over and over again essentially so luckily 2012 that was the last treatment episode that i had to enter and now i get the privilege of working for you know a great treatment program and supporting families and individuals that are suffering in a similar way very cool can you talk a little bit you you referred to a spiritual disease or spiritual malady um that you were suffering with can you talk about that a little bit in in depth and and help us understand what that looked like and how it shifted yeah it's ab absolutely so you know not synonymous we read the doctor's opinion which is uh you know uh language that's written years ago right and so it's easy for an alcoholic to say well you know i don't understand lingo but um i definitely understand that you know what the doctor was talking about essentially and when i take a look back and i've gained a little bit of clarity in my life and i've went through detox and and i take a look back at each time that i relapsed you know what was going on within internally inside of me that was creating that change and you know if i suffer from the disease of alcoholism it means that i suffer from a three-fold illness and you know that affects me in my mind you know my spirit in my body and you know for people like me it's easy to tell that i'm alcoholic because when i honestly want to i find that i cannot quit entirely or when i start drinking i have very little control over how much i pay once again that repetition starts to come into fold and preceding each of those instances there's always these feelings that i can't get away from you know that i'm a failure um that i'm irritable i'm discontented that you know there's shame there's guilt there's all these internal feelings that are happening that are creating this need to drink and numb my feelings away and essentially what i learned is you know once i've gathered a little bit of clarity um you know if i can fix those issues internally then i have a better shot at turning off the obsession and you know one of the guys in my treatment program you know pastor dale was his name and he said you know an easier way to get to doing that is you know take uh take it take it easy you know stop doing bad things and start doing admirable qualities in your life and institute those in your life and um you know since that time i think i've done a pretty good job of that uh don't beat my myself up anymore i'm able to experience my emotions walk through those and i certainly have you know a program that implements accountability and responsibility uh to manage my condition appropriately which puts me in a position to be in contact with a power greater than myself and which really solves my problems let's um it seems as though it's a it's a simple answer to a very complex question right is to work on that spirituality piece and and i like the way you explain that that it's it's kind of that three-fold your mind your body and your spirit that you've got to address all angles of that in order to really find some healing yeah of course i mean oftentimes i get asked to speak at meetings here locally and obviously i you know i say yes to those requests quite often but i'm often kind of you know questioning myself well what is the one thing that i could share with you all that would spark your interest in creating a life in recovery um unfortunately it's not just one thing certainly having an understanding that i suffer from this disease same as other people that is there is kind of this foundational point that we have to have otherwise i'm not going to stay if i don't believe that i suffer in the similar capacity that you guys do um but yes there is a wide variety of different things that work in cohesion within the program that you know um that are extremely important and a lot of that just has to do with timing right you can say the right thing to somebody in one of those groups and if it's not the right time it doesn't matter so timing's an issue the other thing that we see a lot of times is times of change right times of transition so you just came through a transition right luckily not a career change but just a change of employment right so how has that process been for you and what have the tools been that you've relied on through that process yeah i've been really in a fortunate position you know i as a result of men in my recovery i found myself in a position where i could give back in a way i can utilize my story to support other people and families and i and i learned a profession as a result of this and you know i've been employed over the letters in behavioral health and working for you know just now my third uh program that i have the honor and privilege to represent um and so the process for me was you know was challenging um but at the same time i was supported by so many other professionals that said you know hey take a little bit of time for yourself make a good decision god has an answer for you you know he has a plan for you trust in the process and you know i waited and i talked to my sponsor i talked to my therapist i taught an a.a i talked to other professionals that i engaged with and they all said golly casey really worked hard over the last five years you should take a month for yourself and in that month i was able to see my kids and my family and uh spent with close relationships and enjoy some things that i personally like to do and you know i was engaged in the right conversations and i found myself in the right situation and you know today uh being my second day representing burning tree uh family programs and uh you know it couldn't be more habitat it's truly a wonderful organization uh they have uh at least saved the lives of some of the best friends that i have in the entire world they represent themselves with integrity um honesty and excellence right and to have an opportunity to represent that brand and be a part of that organization you know really warms my heart to be able to be there so very fortunate very fortunate that's for sure i was going to ask you what you what attracted you to burning tree but you took care of that one pretty quickly so we'll move on from that question right um what's pretty simple answer yeah yeah yeah so aside from what attracted you you know since it's your third program now you've seen some of the different approaches right so how does burning trees approach change you know what are what are the things that they're doing that are different you know that that you see that they're implementing so burning tree has three very specific and distinctly different treatment programs um the program that i mentioned quite most often and what they're really known for is their ranch program which is a long-term residential treatment program for individual jewels that are awful for other means uh you know people like me would probably have been a really good candidate to enter that program uh this is only when a change for their loved ones so it's really a one-of-a-kind type program typically the clients are engaged in the process for you know a year or more they offer all levels of care but their residential treatment is a long-term treatment episode there's a lot of behavior modification instituted it it brings about a lot of accountability and disabilities some of the same characteristics that we see in individuals that are successful in 12 12-step programs they also have a young young persons program located in tucson arizona called burning tree west that offers extended care services for young adults and then last but not least they they have the renewal lodge which is you know the 30-day treatment years located in austin or elgin texas which offers their services to a wider variety of demographics that may be privy to the services they provide and so uh it's uh allowing us an opportunity to cast a wider net to support and assist different individuals that have specific needs i'm wondering casey you talked about the fact that that you really moved across the country and i think your parents were probably a catalyst for that there's uh there's a lot of talk in the industry a lot of insurance companies just recently trying to prevent some of that movement across state lines or across multiple state lines that we're seeing happening now i'm wondering what's your take on the value of being able to move out of your environment as opposed to staying right where you are for treatment yeah for me it was extremely important you know i had made a mess of my situation locally i can't imagine if i would have went to even a high quality treatment program locally and completed that program in 30 days and then returned to my local environment that i would be here today you know speaking about recovery i don't know how that would have worked for me it was invaluable you know well here's county where i live and reside and have worked in programs and uh you know here locally i mean we have a two percent share of all the aaa groups in the world and one of the really uh selling points for my family at that point in time was that there's a really conducive recovery community here that supports individuals in early recovery in addition to you know having high quality resources that certainly were not available in my local state even now in the year 2021 michigan where i'm from is an extremely under serviced state when it comes to offering quality high quality services for individuals suffering from mental health or substance abuse um so it's kind of just heartening to see providers like optum sending us and limiting their members to their general service area you know that in my opinion could be detrimental to individuals that need specific kinds of treatment assistance specifically when you look at dual diagnosis mental health eating disorder pain management programs there may not be a specific type of program in your state or even in the next state next year's so i'm not sure exactly how they're going to manage that to me um an individual who's experienced in different points of advocacy it seems to be you know a breach of mental health parity um but we will find out uh because it's just newly been instant i know there will be a lot of advocacy agencies there will be a lot of providers that will band up to try and prevent this action from uh continuing essentially well and i would uh i would also think that um i'm just sitting here thinking about the ramifications and when you're looking at like first responders right there's there's not there's not as many programs out there that are that are designed specifically for the first responder and that's a unique group of individuals who still have to go back out and do the jobs that they do who still have to go back out and be in danger but but for them to be in treatment especially police officers to be in treatment with the same people that they maybe had to put in jail or the same people that you know they're enforcing and trying to create safety in the community that kind of puts them in a compromised situation as well is that they're not getting the specific you know the specific types of treatment that they need and they're and certainly it would be um detrimental to them to have to go to treatment with the general population so that's another another group that i think would be um really impacted by those kinds of changes that we're seeing happening i wholeheartedly agree with that you know i think one of the wonderful things about being privy to a lot of services that are available throughout the country is we see a lot of treatment programs available for individuals of that demographic right and unfortunately we need to do a better job of educating our consumers because a lot of times people for whatever reason select the wrong type of provider then maybe turn turned off um in regards to appropriate treatment for specific individuals you need a lot of specific type treatment providers available throughout the country to support um the wide variety of people that are entering treatment and i believe that we will see a wide influx of individuals seeking treatment in the for this next year because obviously we have just getting ourselves out of or we are finding ourselves on the way hopefully out of a pandemic which has brought about a lot of additional mental health and substance abuse concerns for the general population in the united states definitely um it's an interesting topic and it'll be it'll definitely be it's all of us are kind of sitting on the edge of our chairs trying to see where this is going to go and how we can make a difference so i love that that you shared your your insight around that um i'm curious about the different organizations that you're part of and how those organizations impact treatment and impact the rules and regulations around that can you talk about each one of those organizations just a little bit yeah absolutely so i'll start with the first one that i that i typically have a little bit more of my volunteer time associated with and which is national association of addiction treatment providers or natab so i've served on the membership committee for natab over the last coming up on three years um they are leaders in the field of substance abuse and mental health and essentially they have about a thousand organizations and supporters that support the organization and each you know treatment program or provider or supporter pays dues into a large pool so that the organization can represent themselves nationally and locally they provide a lot of educational material they support individual you know individual programs they um they have a pac representative in washington dc that is looking at national uh you know legislation that supports behavioral health facilities and they have a they have a d something they have a directory essentially that you can um you can get to on their website to identify uh different providers within your state or members that are part of the organization recently uh well in 2019 i had an opportunity for their national conference and we showed up in washington dc and we had a really unique opportunity where we could make appointments with our senators and house of representatives legislative aides and talk about issues that were affecting behavioral health care at that point in time and you know some of our concerns were you know the opioid epidemic and there was a lot of legislation and funding associated with combating the opioid epidemic but we felt that mental health and substance abuse as a whole was a much larger focus that needed as much attention as specifically opioids did another couple things that we wanted to touch base on was mental health parity uh we've already mentioned mental health parody in regards to the recent optimum decision but we continue to see melty mental health parity breached by insurers you know throughout the country with you know support for their members outrageous out of pockets and deductibles associated with their care denial for authorization for levels of care that asam criteria designates and then the last subject that we wanted to breach was you know at the professional community or behavioral health organizations and nataf had adopted a code of ethics that their members the thousand programs and supportive members needed to adopt and we were asking at that point in time that there would be some sort of government oversight in regards to some of the unethical behavior that we find in our industry which is really sad right and i think you have a subject subset of providers that are really trying to right thing and work within confines of law and then you you see other sets that are trying to abuse the privileges that that that are available to them so um 20 while we're in the pandemic natak a state advocacy toolkit and nikki soto their membership director and mark dunn their pac leader asked if we would set up a statewide advocacy campaign here in the state of california so the one thing that i was able to do was reach back and speak with all the people that were participating in the event in 2019 and we had stayed in touch they agreed that they would support that mission and we organized a service board and we started hosting monthly meetings to start educating addiction professionals throughout the state of california in regards to some of these concerns you know our ideals were that oftentimes in behavioral health we sit on the sidelines and we allow policies and legislative efforts to go forwardand we rely on others to do this work for us and then when change is needed we have to change according to what has been passed and we may not like that change so our ideas was to utilize our political system and our politicians and educate our membership to participate in advocacy efforts locally um so that's what we've been up to with natap and as a result of that work that we started with natetap um you know sherry layton who is works for la hacienda and is a large advocate throughout the united states working for an atap and made act asked me to join nadax public policy committee and uh so i'm i think the only representative on the public policy committee that is um west of the state of texas so um i'm just getting started with them i've completed my first meeting i'm really looking forward to participating in that in any way i can be of service and it's really it's really a unique experience to be in the position and you know have an opportunity to participate and it goes right back to the roots in the 12-step program and aaa it's just kind of one of those things when you're asked to participate i say yes and you know i find out how i can participate the best as i continue to understand and engage in the work so casey this is um it brings up a question to me and is that we've we've talked about you know these big insurance companies they've been in you know doing this for a long long time and you know we see a lot of the shifts that happened in the medical arena happening in the behavioral health arena and i'm curious we've got all these organizations like natap and nadak and that are really trying to advocate and call out some of the the things that are happening that are unethical how much influence do we have and what changes are you seeing happening as a result of these efforts you know i'm glad you you asked that question it's a really good question sully because we do have a lot of pull here um and there is obviously strength in numbers right um one voice is not louder than a hundred um since the time in 2019 here in the state of california sb 855 was passed just recently which is reinforcement of mental health parity which means that facilities and treatment programs in the state of california if there is an insurer that is breaching mental health parity that there is a task force associated with it where they can report their uh breaches of mental health parity and essentially if the provider is providing asam criteria for a specific level of care for a client or a patient and the insurance company is denying that level of care then that essentially is a breach of mental health parity and can go to the task force so that is one thing that as a result of advocacy efforts has passed here in the state of california and i would expect that more states will take on this piece of legislation and so we'll see this going around the country and that's as a result of solid advocacy efforts also during the pandemic a lot of additional funding and resources was asked for for multiple advocacy efforts throughout the country and so we saw a you know a large funding project be established for behavioral health throughout the country which was another piece of advocacy work and there is constantly things going on that that were preceded by some sort of advocacy advocacy efforts it's good because sometimes going up against those that you know the these big insurance companies feels a little daunting so getting involved in some of these organizations that are being successful and being able to implement change is a good way to go absolutely i wouldn't want to um state in any way that we are against insurance we're actually very very people that are foreign our support an avenue to quality benefits right and so our goals are to work in cohesion with our supportive agencies you know our national organizations our state organizations work with our politicians and find you know ourselves working alongside uh the insurers to ensure that you know there are appropriate rules that we can live by and they can live by so we can get to the work of supporting individuals and families going through you know treatment and uh you know maintaining a life of recovery well and i appreciate that perspective too is it isn't i mean insurance companies are doing an awful lot to help people get into treatment and help you know support that and so i i appreciate that sometimes it feels like it's us against them but that's really not the right way to think about it because it is in conjunction with their efforts and in conjunction with what they're doing so i appreciate that perspective yeah absolutely i think it's important to consider and we're seeing this a lot more often i think there's a lot more providers out there that are establishing network status with insurers and you know and uh and you know which makes their services more readily available to a wider a variety of people fortunately for us at burning tree we do have that option with in reno lodge and burning tree west having a couple of network contracts which allows us an opportunity to support individuals and families at a lower cost out of pocket to them so we look at those things as really good things in our industry and we want to ensure that everybody that needs support finds it in a certain way absolutely with the with the covet pandemic i don't know i want i want to optimistically say it's coming to an end and you know it's going to be over soon but but that may be a little over over optimistic um you know telehealth has really looked at some interesting shifts and changes due to the pandemic and i'm wondering what your perspective is on telehealth where you see it going and the role it's played and its limitations do you have some thoughts around that i mean i think uh you know thank god we were able to institute uh telehealth during that pandemic because there was a wide variety of people that needed professional services that were they were able to reach and maintain and we've seen you know different organizations take on specific programs relative to telehealth there's a lot of psychiatric therapeutic providers that are offering telehealth services i mean i see my therapist right now through telehealth right it's you know our you know our arena are uh changed a little bit when it comes to that um it certainly has provided some safety for the clients and the provider of the interim do i believe that it can take the place of face-to-face engagement not necessarily but i think it can support um in a way that you know is very convenient for people oftentimes we'd be in a position where we would be supporting an individual or a family that's coming here to california for a specific type of treatment and then they complete and return to an environment a very rural environment that doesn't have a lot of saturation of treatment resources so i believe in those cases like that you know providing some sort of case management intensive outpatient programming private practice therapy psychiatry can be you know a real game changer for our industry that can support people you know into long term recovery you know with those services so definitely i think of it as huge benefit to the communities so i'm curious you talked a little bit um casey about some of that aftercare and some of that support network and i know that in your recovery story you also mentioned that you've created this support network can you talk a little bit about personally i heard you say that you go to counseling and you see a therapist what are the things that you do to maintain and um to perpetuate growth in yourself personal growth and maintain that sobriety yeah that's a good question i think when you take a look at just maybe from an aaa perspective you think of that's 10 11 and 12 right that i'm keeping consistent information on my motives and behaviors on a daily basis and that i'm staying in constant contact with the higher power and god that i found as a result of working the steps and then i'm sharing a message of recovery to other people and walking them through the process which allows me an opportunity not to think about myself so much and invest my time and energy on supporting other people which kind of takes away the biggest problem is is that i think myself all the time you know and that's kind of how that goes but more importantly when you take a professional role and you know you designate your life in the support of other people it's important that you um maintain some healthy boundaries for yourself and so i have chosen to stay engaged in my sponsorship which means that no matter how sober i am that i don't have the answers for everything and then i'm never too sober to ask for help and so i have the same sponsor that i had from the beginning and you know we meet regularly and see each other at meetings and talked often and we share uh intimate details about our life and we stay current honest and transparent with each other which you know uh it you know definitely works for me and then um yes i did mention that i see a therapist i actually see the same therapist that i had in treatment uh eight and a half years ago who works in private practice now and and uh you know i love and respect her and she's done great things for me but it's just another way that i can continue to take care of myself um on a daily monthly weekly basis and then you know there are other opportunities some professionals go to intensive professional programs you know once a year to do those things for me personally i have a very large sponsorship group i attend multiple aaa meetings weekly i'm engaged in a recovery community that supports me just yesterday it was me and about 10 other guys that are part of my sponsorship family a lot of which that i sponsor they were able to invite their wives their fiances bring their children my wife kane we all got together and enjoyed a day at the beach and you know we can look right out that window and see the beach but you know we were down there and saying hey we need to do this more often we live here in california and we aren't even enjoying the beach because you become so accustomed to it right but sometimes it's about getting back to basics or enjoying simple things in life and you know i'm a big believer that i have to have some time that i'm enjoying life and usually i'm looking forward to the next thing that i have to do and you know so that may be a family vacation it may be a personal trip it may be you know some form of work related activity that i'm looking forward to so again this is another very broad topic topic and there's a lot of things that are involved in it but that's specifically what i work on uh to maintain my health well and and i love that you share some of those things because everybody does every time somebody shares they share something just a little bit different a little bit different you know something that works for them a little bit differently than what someone else might one thing that you did mention that i don't hear very many people mention it quite the way that you did is that when you engage in service and thinking about others and in helping others it takes you away from your own your own thoughts about yourself right it kind of makes your problems seem more manageable i don't hear a lot of people talk about that concept but i think it's a really powerful one um and i'm wondering if you can talk about it just a little bit more yeah i mean right in the big book it states nothing um something along the lines nothing will create permanent sobriety or as intensive work with other alcoholics right so intensive work with other alcoholics provides me an opportunity you know i have been granted a reprieve from this disease that's based on the maintenance of my spiritual condition um and you know part of my spiritual solution is to share this message that was so freely given to me in the program of alcoholics anonymous right and um you know as a result of sharing that message i've had two men come up and ask me to be their sponsor which i'm honored and privileged to do which means i get to take time in my personal time to you know show them the things that i was shown for free from my sponsor you know i mean there is no amount of service that i can do alcoholics anonymous that will ever repay the debt that i owe that program for saving my life i am absolutely thoroughly convinced that you know i would have perished if it wasn't for the program of alcoholics anonymous i've seen so many of my friends that were in michigan in a similar situation as me that are no longer here and you know i'm i'm sad that they didn't enjoy the same freedoms that i did and um you know nothing makes me feel better than you know giving back um you know my purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve variety some variety i didn't have a purpose before i got to the program before i got sober before i found recovery and keeping that simple purpose in my life has been you know extremely important to me and you know i've been privileged to be able to live with that purpose on a daily basis and you know i've been really privileged to be able to institute that in my work life you know almost daily as well you know i engage with families i engage with individuals patients clients um i engage with other recovery professionals that walk this journey with me and it's really you know a unique thing to be a part of and a special thing and you know to be able to share that with other people is an important message that needs to be heard i appreciate you sharing that it's it's no wonder you know that so many people that go through recovery and go through treatment end up back in the industry working because it is a great place to serve and give back what was given to you so i think it's a great cyclical kind of a program when you can you know go through it and do your healing and then continue your healing process while you share with others what you were given absolutely i imagine casey and i'm just making an assumption correct me if i'm wrong but that you're probably a pretty big reader and that you i imagine you probably read quite a few books i read some spiritual books and i read a lot of 12-12 that's for sure i had meetings on a weekly basis yeah i do enjoy absolutely i'm just wondering if you can recommend um one of your most recent reads to to our audience one that you really got a lot out of well i've been reading a lot of books for uh addiction professionals recently and um i really uh appreciate dr louise sting here and she sent me a signed copy of her new book which is addiction in the family and then so i've given that a read recently and there's a lot of great tidbits in there about supporting individuals on on the path to recovery and specifically their support network um a good friend of mine kevin peterson is a writer and author and uh you know uh he said democratic hope which is his book and so i've given that recently that i really really enjoy and then i obviously enjoy a lot of uh you know augmented work so those are some good books that i enjoy reading to to bring me closer to um you know the spiritual awareness or this power that i found as a result of working these steps that's awesome and i love that you you didn't just stop with one book you gave us at least three books that we could go check out that uh that you've found very useful um casey three authors and three authors right three different authors not even the same one there's there's so many books out there um that i always like to i always like to ask just so i can you know enhance my reading list and go you know go read something new as well so thank you for sharing that um casey um i really appreciate you being on with kurt and i today and um i suspect that there's going to be some people want to connect with you if not to talk about the associations that you're involved in and the changes that they're making but to maybe connect with you um you know based on your recovery story and the work that you do what's the best way for them to get connected with you well they can reach me by phone email whatever is easiest for them i also have social media profiles on facebook instagram and linkedin my direct information is 949-877-6517 you can send me an email at k gooding at burningtree.com if you'd like to touch base and then look me up i'd be more than happy to speak with anybody that's out there that needs support i appreciate it and um and i can tell that that you're so invested in the work and in helping people that uh i just appreciate that and want to say thank you well thank you for giving me a platform to talk about that today i do enjoy that it's been a real concur today and i really appreciate the opportunity thanks casey