"I love you more than heroine."
Find out why this statement has value as we are joined by Elizabeth Snyder from Reflections Recovery Center. She talks about recovery, depth psychology, existentialism, shame, support networks, chaos, and the value of slowing down. “Your way doesn’t work. You don’t know what you’re doing. Listen to other people.” she was told as she got into recovery. She has continued to open up, learn, and connect in her own recovery and as a professional.
www.reflectionsrecoveryutah.com
The Illuminate Recovery Podcast is about Mental Health, Mental Illness, and Addiction Recovery. Shining light on ways to cope, manage, and inspire. Beyond the self care we discuss, you may need the help of a licensed professional. Curt Neider and Shelley Mangum are a part of Illuminate Billing Advocates. They are committed to helping better the industry and adding value to the lives of listeners by sharing tools, insights, and success stories of those who are working on their mental health.
Transcript (no grammar):
i love you more than heroin find out why this statement has value as we are joined by elizabeth snyder from reflections recovery center she talks about recovery depth psychology existentialism shame support networks chaos and the value of slowing down your way doesn't work you don't know what you're doing listen to other people she was told that she got into recovery she has continued to open up learn and connect in our own recovery and as a professional enjoy welcome to the illuminate recovery podcast we shed light on mental health issues mental illness and addiction recovery ways to cope manage and inspire beyond self-care we will discuss you may need the help of a licensed professional my name is kurt neider i'm a husband father entrepreneur a handyman and a student of life i avoid conflict i deflect with humor and i'm fascinated by the human experience and i'm shelley mangum i am a clinical mental health counselor and my favorite role of all times is grandma i am a seeker of truth and i feel like life should be approached with tremendous curiosity i ask the dumb questions i fill in the gaps hey liz it's so great to have you with us we have today um elizabeth snyder she's with us and um can't tell you how excited elizabeth has a tremendous passion for this industry and and she's she's shared a few things with me along the way that i'm super curious to learn more about so welcome liz and thanks for uh thanks for sharing your insights with us today yeah thanks for having me i'm excited so there was one thing that that you had said as you've you know you've come on quite a journey and maybe you can talk just a little bit about your journey um you talked about your buddhist um background kind of the buddhist mentality that that drives some of your thinking and thought processes i wonder if you could share some of that with us oh yeah for sure um the history of it kind of pertains to my whole recovery process too um i was first introduced to buddhism i think when i was like 14 my brother gave me a book by tick not han i read it didn't think much on it just like okay i like this um kind of dabbled in a little bit just because i don't refer to myself as a practicing buddhist but i study the philosophy and like how it applies to psychoanalysis so it wasn't until i got back into college um that i really delved into it more i think it was my sophomore year i took a class called thinking knowing and being not realizing that this was a senior level class um and i was like maybe a year sober um so i'm in this class and it's on indian thought phenomenology and how heidi gary in theory um heidegger is a heidegger is a philosopher so that is really really what introduced me into it and my professor at the time wayne hanowicz wonderful man um just kind of grabbed me as like you have a thing for this you need to get more into this and it kind of flourished from there that i really started getting into the theory of it and how it applied to addiction or how you could use it to treat addiction and mental health which really led to a lot of my research too with an addiction and grief and mental health and all these other things that's very cool i know that you this was the the terminology that you used was um the phenomenology and the existentialism yes i define that a little bit what does that mean um so existentialism at least how i viewed it in my research and studies has been like what is your what is your purpose where do you get your identity from your sense of being um like capital b being like who is it that you are and for what purpose what drives you in your life um and the phenomenology is you know it's all those interesting parts that we see unfolding in our lives like the stories and the narration and how that ties to our sense of being and purpose and how that relates to others so that's really how i've approached phenomenology and existentialism is kind of these two things that interlock with each other to explain existence very cool and i too i love the existence existentialism and that framework right of what makes us tick what's our center and our core which also leads to that idea that that you mentioned that you'd really like to see depth psychology become more of a practice so talk about what is depth psychology um so deaf psychology this is how i viewed it i mean i'm i'm somewhat biased because i've had these mentors in my life where i kind of clung to them and kind of explored their interests but realized like our interests are a lot of the same um so deaf psychology from my understanding of it at least um you know because we see that people come into therapy or they come into treatment and it's this quick fix like an outpatient the understanding is like we'll have them for 90 days or if you go to individual therapy it's like we'll go in get fixed in ten sessions um that's not enough time because these things that we're going to treatment for or for therapy for are really fascinating and nuanced and they're going to take some time to delve into so i wish that there could be more attention put to those things to really wonder and ask why and get into the trauma and get into the codependent relationships or whatever those dynamics are and really unravel them which that's going to take longer than a couple months you know it might take years or it might take a year and you'll have a break and then you'll come back in another year because human life is it's hard and to think that we're gonna have this quick fix it's just i think it's really silly but that's kind of how the insurance companies have kind of pushed it and how it's just come to be understood of like go in get out you're done yeah which is challenging because some people i mean you know we're talking about the kind of and talk a little bit about the treatment program that you do and and that and the level of acuity that you see people come in with because my perspective is i look at life as it's a journey and we are all on that journey of healing and you can call it recovery but i don't think that's exclusive to just people that go into a facility or into treatment for substance abuse or mental health i believe i mean those are those have higher acuities but we're all on a journey right and we are never able to get to a place where we feel heard and seen and understood not only by ourselves but by others then then we really haven't haven't found that place of of love and belonging and healing right and so talk a little bit about where you work what kind of acuity you see coming into it and how some of these these ideas that you have these approaches how you really see them having a positive impact impact on these people so i run reflections outpatient so it's an outpatient dual diagnosis substance abuse and mental health treatment program majority of our clients it's primary substance abuse and it's really rare when we will have people come in that don't also have a mental health diagnosis because usually that mental health diagnosis is there first but we're treating the substance abuse because it's essentially flaring up the most right now because you'll abuse substances to cope with your mental health issues um so what we see with our clients that's kind of been the trend we've been open for about three years now is you know they come in and we tell them like it's a minimum absolute minimum 90 days if we say 90 days like oh cool i'm done in 90 days our average is about 5 to 6 months but even then i feel like that's not long enough because it's usually by about month three they're finally open like okay i need to get into my trauma or i need to get into my mental health disorders and then it's kind of like this rush thing of like well do we get into the trauma in these issues when you're going to be graduating soon because that's just going to open up all these wounds and then we pass you off and we don't see you so we've been really doing a much better job of really taking those things in consideration a lot sooner in our program of if we know if someone has trauma or mental health we're up front with them like you might have a longer stay here because if we get into the trauma and the mental health it might dredge up some cravings and some triggers um it's gonna sometimes lead to relapses that's something that we understand um but yeah to even 90 days and that's kind of the understanding for outpatient programs is not enough time and especially in our program we utilize couple sessions and family sessions and we'll do co-therapy where quite a few of our clients will have two therapists sometimes in the room at the same time or they'll rotate or two different therapists for two separate sessions within the same week which that's a lot to get into and get to get into and to unravel in just 90 days it's not possible yeah absolutely especially when you consider somebody's primary they're coming in on substance abuse and that is their most acute right that's the thing you have to address first because it's life threatening yeah and so we address their you know they have to detox and they're you know 30 days before the fog leaves and they can really start to function mentally and start to shift some of those thought processes and all of that and and now you're already 30 days into it right yeah so then you just have the short period of time and if they get 90 days which is is rare even now right if you get 30 days you're lucky it as a residential level of care and then you've got to do your outpatient which there's value to that but but they've got to be i mean how long do you see people really the successful people that that really can engage in recovery and sustain that recovery how long do they engage in treatment so what it used to be i miss this i miss when residential treatment was 90 days because when i went through treatment that was that was the norm because like you said that first 30 days you're just getting stable you're detoxing and then you're ready to you know you get your cognitive functioning back um so with inpatient now being about you know 30 days maximum 45 and then transitioning to outpatient for those that we have successfully complete the program inpatient outpatient fully you're looking at about six to seven months of treatment but that is is a fight with the insurance companies but it's also you know to really get into like i mentioned the trauma and the mental health or relationships they're having with peers and treatment you know codependency and there's so many different things that can get dredged up and flare up and get compounded and all combined um we have about six seven months i would say is our average for those that fully complete it and then maintain in our aftercare program also yeah yeah it's and i really think that it should be a year-long program right i mean we have great much better understanding now really great tools that we have for helping to resolve that trauma and um but but still it takes time to reprocess the way it's stored in the brain it takes time to you know make those shifts and find safety and find those support networks that are needed so yeah i agree with you wholeheartedly that it before time i'm wondering if you could share with us maybe some of your recovery as much of it or as little of it as you'd like um but some you know in the in the midst of that some of your biggest failures or setbacks you know maybe your biggest one and and kind of how you approach that yeah yeah so i my recovery story i'll just give kind of a quick quick summary of it um so i was a poly substance addict primary drug of choice was heroin though but like i did everything um other than math somehow i did not come across meth and i did not see it until a week i went into residential treatment but you know i everything else i was doing all of it i went through individual therapy in and out of therapists methadone clinics being prescribed methadone from just primary doctors not at a clinic because i couldn't afford methadone treatment at a clinic i would say probably my biggest failure that still stands out to me in my recovery process was there was a moment i think it was in i want to say 2011 where i had some friends that knew i was using their like we're telling your parents so they drove me to my parents and i completely freaked out um i was drunk i was on heroin and i had a prescription of ambien at the time and i was just done so i took the whole bottle of ambien and had an active suicide attempt um where my dad was on the phone with the cops um calling an ambulance while i was sitting there in this fit of anger just kicking him kicking my sweet little dad um that to me was my biggest like failure of how bad it actually was and that i wasn't able to really see it because i didn't get into recovery until years later a couple years after that fact um it still took some time but that was a really big moment when i still look back on it like that is how bad it really gets um and that's our norm for those of us in recovery these stories of horror and trauma and fighting with family it's it's normal it's our average it's so hard because you work so hard to try and cope and manage right and what i find is really interesting and maybe it's not funny but there is a humor people who are actively you know in their addiction um often think that they're managing really well and that nobody knows they're they're you know struggling with addiction and it's kind of humorous because everybody knows yes everyone yep i think we're hiding it so well and that's never the case but you really do believe that you are and so there's that you know that lack of awareness um and you know the drugs and that influence on the brain is really what does that mean yeah one thing that you probably have some insight on you tell me is that really active use of of a substance tends to change and i think of maslow's hierarchy right it tends to change the most important things in your life to where that drug becomes the most important do you see that happening a lot oh yes yep um actually funny little anecdote that's happened over this last weekend that reminded me of this i was talking with my sister she's seeing a new doctor and her doctor was just chatting with her hanging out and mentioned that he's in recovery too and his drug of choice was heroin and my sister was like it was weird that he was telling me this right but i shared with him i said like oh yeah my sister's in recovery too she once told me that um she loves me more than heroin and the doctor just said like oh my gosh your sister loves you so much because heroin is great and just that alone is like yeah that's because our drugs it becomes everything because we're trying to numb out it becomes our coping skill it becomes this romance where you are in love with it and in this really dynamic relationship with it where it is your everything it holds your hope it holds your desire it also holds your downfalls that you know active use it's a romance it's a really sad romance story and it rewires your brain it's not like you know that to happen that that's just part of the chemical reaction that goes on in addiction right it's part of that addictive pattern is eventually that drug becomes more important than every relationship you have even the most important relationship which is why relationships are so hard and we talk about them in you know you talk about them family therapy and relationships and couple therapy because it does a lot of damage and and it just rewires that brain to where it's even it becomes more important than food then clothing then shelter the drug is the most important thing and you will you will do anything to get that drug and it's and some people are like what's wrong with them why can't they choose not to do that and it's not a choice at that point right yeah um if you have it's a survival instinct at that point because it's like you said like it's it's more important than food and shelter um it's one thing like we'll use these substances to cope with whatever it is that we're coping with and then you become dependent on it and like you said there isn't a choice at that point because you're dependent on it because without it you're gonna get so sick which withdrawals i would not wish upon my worst enemy because it's it's hellish it's terrible and just to save that off alone is like yes it's gonna be more important than food and shelter in your relationships because the pain of going through those withdrawals is horrendous which is in the back of your mind always when you're using imagine yeah so okay so talk for a little bit i love that you shared your story some of your story right and some of that journey and for you it's real it's it's like this is this is who you are this is part of your story and and um and so often we carry shame with our story that somehow there's something inherently wrong with us do you have a thoughts around that piece um yeah it's something that i've actively lived to because i grew up in a family where shame was never imposed on us and granted i had a pretty messed up family like i have a brother that was in active use died from my heroin overdose a few years ago another brother that was smoking marijuana and taking acid all throughout high school just really dysfunctional family like my dad went to prison for a couple of years but throughout all that a lesson that my dad taught us because he went to prison you know like that's one of the worst things that can happen to someone he never talked about it with shame yes there was some guilt there and some um like concern and just some like you know some years lost but never shame about it um so even when i was in my active youth and my brother too and my other siblings whatever we were going through um yes there was some disappointment but i never felt shamed oddly enough and so i've tried to really live that and something i found in recovery is you know to validate without enabling to not impose shame to not impose guilt because that's not going to do any good it's going to worsen the problem um granted over the years when i was in active use there was some moments of shame but it was more out of frustration from my family of just not knowing what to do so it's you know as a family member you try anything any type of intervention or any kind of discussion you're possibly going to just to get something through um but i've never felt shame about my addiction and i've never viewed it as something shameful because it's a way that people cope and when you've gone through something that has led you to abuse substances to cope that's not that person's fault um you know like you said to it at one point it becomes a choice where you can't stop um and so if to impose shame on someone when they can't stop something that's not going to do any good you need to talk to them about it you need to validate it have them be heard and get to unravel and get all those words out so it's not weighing them down anymore that's profound it's so profound well and it was pretty remarkable that you didn't experience more shame because families often not knowing and not understanding what addiction is and how it works you know how often do you hear the words what's wrong with you and why can't you just stop right yeah it's not that easy it just can't be that easy and so that openness of you know we're we accept everything here right and we're going to look at this and we're going to dive deep i love your your idea that everybody's story is so remarkable and so incredible regardless of what it is that when we can dive down into it the things that we learn from them and that they learn about themselves that's where the healing happens right it's really i know i was told once i'm a clinical mental health counselor and i was told once that you're not supposed to ask why questions like what do you mean like what do you mean my whole life is asking why like explain this to me help me understand this and so i just have to ask it in a different way i can't say why because some people think that when you say why you're asking them why they're doing that because they're doing something wrong right they're doing crap you send that message and i'm like i would never send that message i just want to understand i need to know right now this works so i love that piece i'm curious because recovery is not a solo activity so what were you what was your support network who were your mentors along the way not just in recovery too but recovery and then you know moving on to wanting to get in uh get into recovery and working in recovery and helping others yeah um so when i first you know got to recover i did i did a month of inpatient treatment because i was private pay too i was not doing longer than a month didn't want to be there but you know those last couple weeks really benefit me but yeah i did a month of treatment um but for a year after that i attended aftercare which was something that the facility went to offered free of charge and i made it a point to be there every single tuesday night and i rode the bus there and it was not close it was about an hour and a half on the bus every week to get there and back um so for a while that was my support system because you know i just told them treatment your way doesn't work you don't know what you're doing listen to other people and i was told to do aftercare it's like all right i'm doing aftercare um so from aftercare i did that for a while and then as i transitioned out of that there was steps before that too so that when i was about nine months sober um i enrolled back into school i had previously flunked out i was on academic probation because you know i was a flight risk to leave school again and just not show up um but getting back into school i remember meeting with my academic advisor and i was fully honest about what i was going through that i was terrified i was nine months sober i didn't know what classes i was supposed to take i had somehow messed up my scheduling and i was scheduled for two classes at the same time so with her help of taking my classes you know getting them moved around where they needed to be and hearing a little bit of my story um it was okay i'm going to transfer you into psychology 1010 you need to be in matthew draker's class didn't know who this man was she transferred me into his class and matthew draper has been my mentor ever since then that was in 2013 that i went to school i've studied under him i've taken all of his classes he's a phenomenal man he pushed me to do research too like in my freshman year i had to do a research paper just like a practice one for a class he's like well do it how about you do it on the co-morbidity rates of adolescence with eating disorders self-harm and substance abuse like i don't know what this is i'm a freshman but he taught me and he held a research group weekly um a lot of my research i've done with him like i still work with him to this day i've devised curriculum with him i was an instructional assistant for him i took classes for him and now he's the clinical director at our program so i'm in the program director position he's clinical director so we're still buddied up um so as i transitioned out of aftercare i kind of switched to like school that i had created this new life um i didn't know anyone but with matthew draper taking me under his wings like i have this whole new world this is this is a recovery program too it's not 12 steps sure it's not you know going to meetings weekly but it was a new environment that fostered learning and creativity and that to me is what recovery is it's that creativity of how you're going to cope and how you're going to manage and find out what your passions are um which i know like most people they do they go to 12 steps they get a sponsor that was not my route at all i did do 90 meetings in 90 days and i attended a home group for about a year you know and i gave it a good shot with like this just isn't for me um but school that was where i transitioned everything to and you know like i mentioned my studies and all my research it's focused around addiction and recovery um which i do not recommend of making recovery your life and thinking like oh that's going to be how i'm going to maintain my recovery those know how it works i had to really supplement other things into that like how to take care of myself and be aware of my triggers and how to decompress and find people to event with which is a whole other side to that um yes i did aftercare got into school found matt draper was mentored under him and really just thrived in a school environment um and that is kind of where i maintained and found my passion for recovery that's an incredible story and and i you know and that's the thing is you know recovery for every individual is different and so to say that you have to fit some mold and you have to go to aftercare and you have to go to aaa and you which all are powerful things but it might not be what works something out there that works for you because there's so many options you've got to find what's going to work for you and and you might need help doing that which you know still comes back to your idea of digging deep that that depth psychology of helping them really understand who they are at the core because how often do they really not really have a handle on that well when you do trauma too when trauma is the underlying piece that's driving you know the the survival mechanisms that's driving the escape and the the drug use and all of that you've got to go look at that piece and that's not that isn't that's not a short period of time yeah you know i mean you talked about the fact that i think that you have some trauma underlying for your for your addiction that was driving that and i'm assuming you're still working on that oh yeah it's an ongoing um process like even i found over the years that getting into relationships like i'm i'm married now um and i have found too that with my spouse now even being this stable safe relationship has brought up some trauma and i've had to communicate with him like this is just my own neuroses i feel like you're gonna leave me and this is why because you're sticking with me and this is so strange to me because my past is filled with people leaving me because i was either dysfunctional in my mental health or my substance abuse so even stability has stretched up trauma and i think that's something that also gets overlooked that when you get in healthy relationships you're still going to have some neurotic behaviors come out that you're going to have to learn to cope with along the way right but i love that you're able to have that that communication right you talk about it and you speak to it and you say look this is what's coming up for me this is the story i tell myself right now and yeah be out in the open i always love the analogy of when you put things in the light that they can't they can't stay in the darkness and they have to you know you have to be able to to work with them and be able to uncover them and so i love shiny light on things by talking about them with people who deserve to hear your story yeah yeah not everybody deserves that yes okay so here's a question that i always think is a little bit interesting is do you think that everyone needs recovery um yes and no i'm very good at not giving straight answers to questions like this um the reason why yes and no because recovery and i'm sure you know this if people aren't ready it's not going to work um so if we were to say like yes like everyone needs recovery doesn't matter what it's for but if they're not ready then what's the point um so until that person is ready to get into recovery if it's for trauma even if it's for things like gambling or overeating whatever it is you know these nitty-gritty things to get into you know when we think of recovery we think only substance abuse but it can be for absolutely anything and everything when that person's ready for it and ready to really start to delve in and be like oh i might have a problem with this one thing that you know i have a compulsion to or i have a dependence to but until someone's ready it's not going to happen yeah great point not everybody's ready for it they might we might all need it but yeah i'll be open to it and and that's i mean that's right even the first step is that we have to acknowledge that there's something wrong we have to to see that there's actually a problem and we're so busy you know denial denial is a beautiful blissful thing isn't it yes it doesn't help us at all but we live in that space because it's safe and we can protect ourselves so yeah you have to have you know those experiences that and sometimes it takes help from others to like you know i know you think you're doing okay but you're not doing okay and let's get some help you know yep oh craziness it's and it's fun to what's the greatest and i'll just ask this question um what's what do you love about this industry and what you do i love the chaos of it um when i was in active youth that was something that i loved like i i was a con artist like i was dealing drugs um i was counting family members i was counting friends i was counting drug dealers but it was that chaos of everything i've always been drawn to that even as a child just i was always out running around not being where i was supposed to be worrying my parents like where's elizabeth and getting into recovery and working in this field it is chaotic um because you're helping people that are now at those starting stages of maybe they're detoxing or they're realizing they have a problem or they're not open to realizing that they might have a problem and it's messy it is so messy and especially adding the business side of it that i'm now getting involved into oh i love it because it's redefining that chaos for a greater good um like i've always said too that when i was calling people in my manipulation was very good at it that i found a way to use my manipulation and that conning for good i mean like heck like look at insurance companies like doing utilization reviews it's all kind of manipulation of trying to justify why someone needs treatment when an insurance company might not want to pay so it's using those skills for good now that chaos and just the mess of it all i love it because you know we'll have 30 clients at a time and they're all coming in with all these different issues and it's so messy to keep organized and make sure they're attending their groups and meeting with their individual therapists and then consulting with the therapist and the case managers i love it that's fantastic because it is it's chaotic and and you know people are rigid or they're chaotic in these spaces or they're a little bit of both and i love the way you kind of embrace that and go let's work with that let's see how to make that a strength and and insurance companies want to know what's wrong with somebody why can't they function and the chaos is a perfect way to describe that in your notes right so what a great way to show dysfunction at the same time of utilizing those those pieces i know i often have people you know that i've worked with in treatment and and i always look at them and go what's your strength like you know you were pretty successful drug dealer and you were pretty successful at manipulating people and talking to people and conning them and okay these are strengths just like you said let's figure out how to put them into a positive spin and into a useful purpose and and now look at all these strengths that you have right yeah i mean these are some of the highest functioning amazing people that i've ever met are the ones in recovery and i'm just like i love these people they're incredible you know so much to teach me and so for me as a as a therapist it's kind of like you know i'm here to learn just as much as you are let's figure out what works for you there's not one path there's not one way yeah which i love your uniqueness in that um to the listeners out there what's your piece of advice do you have something that that you know you would recommend to everybody that that would be helpful um i think my biggest piece of advice would be to slow down to take your time um you know like i've said that i i do i feel like everyone's story is the greatest story ever told and to enjoy that while we're going through our lives no matter what it is like if it is you know pain and the suffering that we're go through going through sit with it slow down and really get to know why it is you know that maybe you wake up one morning sobbing or that one day is filled with this extreme amount of joy because you've had an accomplishment like to really wonder about those things and just slow down um i think a lot of people in my i i get caught up in this too of trying to define everything and have these expectation expectations and for me at least that has always caused this like clinging to something which just causes me to worry more and have more anxiety but when i slow down and just it is what it is and i'm here and let's see what happens today you know that old saying in the rooms of a a and n a like one day at a time you know which says i don't do 12 steps but i love that because it's true just take it one day at a time slow it down wonder about it and just think figure it out if you can't figure it out ask people you know involve other people and get that connection and those conversations going because everyone's story is the greatest story ever told and when you include other people into your story you're learning pieces of their story and they're learning pieces of yours and that's really beautiful i love that comment that everybody's story is the greatest story that was ever told i could not agree with that more and it's a way of putting it in perspective is let's hear your story it's incredible and tell me more right what happened and so i love that advice that's very very well profound and i think it applies to everybody yeah everybody you don't have to be in this you don't have to have an addiction or have dealt with an addiction to or anything right to have a tremendous incredible story i've heard lots of people go you don't want to hear about my story it's just boring it's whatever yeah i love that um do you want to share anything about reflections as far as a recovery program and you know maybe put in a plug for what they do oh yeah um so we have a residential and an outpatient facility really close to each other too like two blocks from each other which is i love being that close um yes our residential program it's minimum you know 30 days 45 days but the team they have over there is so beautiful like we have a couple case managers that go between the two facilities and just that we offer that little bit of continuity of care of people going between the two facilities has really helped our facility kind of stand out because we know what's going on at both places because it is hard to have people at both facilities so if we can just have a couple select that do that um by our residential facility too it's you know it's smaller too which i love that they keep it small the maximum they can have over there is 16 clients you know because i've been to other facilities where they have you know even when you get close to 20 there's too many people to run a process group with 20 people is insanity to me because how is everyone going to have their voice heard so the fact that they keep that house a smaller house i absolutely love because it gives attention and detail to every single client for whatever their needs are um our outpatient program i mean i i work there i run the program i can't say enough good about it we have had a beautiful team over here that has been the same team for about two years now um where it's i can't say no good about it too is our clinical director right now he was one day a week so we have a very part-time clinical director and that we are still running as smoothly and as beautifully as we are the clinical director that's only here one day a week i think really shows how strong our team is that we all have the understanding that if you're in the building and a decision needs to be made near the therapist it defers to you if you don't know you're going to go grab myself you're going to go grab the office manager that we really consult with each other constantly to help our clients um and we have a really fun team like our doors are always open we're always hanging out with each other and i think this is the same at residential too i'm just not over there so i don't know um but a lot of the same attitudes and beliefs are reflected at both facilities so i'm gonna assume that they have the same kind of mindset they have over there as we do here um yeah i just i love our team because the personalities of everyone and we're friends too but we're also good enough friends that we will kick each other's asses if we have to that we will call each other out of like you really messed up on holding this boundary and here's how you can improve on it that we have that open relationship with each other so we can model that to our clients because they do they look up to us i've had clients tell us all the time like you guys know that we look up to like idols like okay there's some pressure but you know we're doing the best that we can and the fact that the majority of our staff is in recovery too and that we're living this and offering treatment to these people so they can learn from us and we can learn from them is yeah that that's kind of the overall view of our program but it's the people that work here and the clients we serve is the biggest part that's incredible and and i agree if you haven't done your own work and you can't model those healthy patterns then how in the world are you expect you know think that you're going to teach that to somebody else you got to do that work you're going to be able to serve and help other people so i totally endorse that that's incredible um what's the best way for them to do that um best way is probably by phone um probably my cell phone number actually because i use that as like the way to schedule all the intakes and kind of go the admission process because i do work quite a bit from home because calls come in that's when i address them um yes my cell phone number people can contact me on that it's 801 796 2620 um or by email too which is pretty simple liz rrc utah.com um our google listing is also finally up and running took two years but if people want to look us up on google just google reflections recovery center outpatient and for residential just reflections recovery center um and both what's nice about our listing is they really overlap too which is convenient nice yeah that's fantastic liz you know i could talk to you for hours and i love that you were willing to come and share some of your your insight i would love to get with you you know later and talk more in depth about some of the research that you've done and some of your findings which i think are absolutely fascinating um thanks for sharing what you have and we'll probably have to have you on the show again sometime okay again thank you for having me this was a joy to do